What do you do here?

PokerStars Game #2740264563: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2005/10/06 - 15:14:19 (ET)
Table 'Okavango' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Piquette ($1001.15 in chips)
Seat 2: redhed6 ($121.80 in chips)
Seat 3: rounder81 ($113 in chips)
Seat 4: noflop4me ($591 in chips)
Seat 5: sdraymer41 ($158.50 in chips)
Seat 6: dsaxton ($865.10 in chips)
Seat 7: RISKAVERSE ($482.60 in chips)
Seat 8: morti ($553.30 in chips)
Seat 9: nashi ($600 in chips)
sdraymer41: posts small blind $3
dsaxton: posts big blind $6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Jh Js]
RISKAVERSE: folds
morti: folds
nashi: folds
Piquette: raises $12 to $18
redhed6: folds
redhed6 is sitting out
rounder81: folds
noflop4me: folds
sdraymer41: folds
dsaxton: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [3c 8h Td]
dsaxton: checks
Piquette: bets $30
dsaxton: raises $60 to $90
Piquette: calls $60
*** TURN *** [3c 8h Td] [4s]
dsaxton: checks
Piquette: bets $190
dsaxton: ???

Tough spot. Kinda looks like hes pushing AK pretty hard. Why not lead the turn so your flop raise doesn't look like a failed steal attempt. If you get raised on the turn you can surely fold.

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

Tough spot. Kinda looks like hes pushing AK pretty hard. Why not lead the turn so your flop raise doesn't look like a failed steal attempt. If you get raised on the turn you can surely fold.

After he called my check-raise it looked like he actually did have what he was representing (an overpair, since this guy is pretty much just a straightforward ABC player who I doubt would raise with a hand containing a 10). It's also possible he flopped a set, I think.

Maybe a small bet would've been preferred so I could control the pot and try to show the hand down.

Edit: After watching this guy play some more, I'm almost sure I had the best hand.

Why did you check the turn?

I think in check-raising the flop, you need to bet the turn. It looks like you're just betting because you don't think he has anything. I wouldn't be surprised if he calls that flop bet with a pretty wide range (possibly any pair; definitely any T). I'd bet the turn and find out a bit more about where you actually stand (to me checking just says "yeah, good call on the flop. I was just testing you")..

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I think in check-raising the flop, you need to bet the turn. It looks like you're just betting because you don't think he has anything. I wouldn't be surprised if he calls that flop bet with a pretty wide range (possibly any pair; definitely any T). I'd bet the turn and find out a bit more about where you actually stand (to me checking just says "yeah, good call on the flop. I was just testing you")..

Well, what new information would I gain from betting the turn that I didn't gain from check-raising the flop? I might found out that he flopped a monster instead of just an overpair or something, but that doesn't seem very useful.

I see people quite frequently calling check/raises on the flop w/ over cards because they think a check/raise is a standard steal play w/ a safe board. Maybe the plays are a little at the level you are playing.

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

I see people quite frequently calling check/raises on the flop w/ over cards because they think a check/raise is a standard steal play w/ a safe board.

This is exactly what I was saying.

I didn't mean that I thought you were check raising because you thought he had nothing. I meant that HE thought you were check raising (potentially with any two) because you thought he had nothing. He may infact have a monster. Or he may have almost any two and simply be playing you on what he thinks is an obvious bluff. Betting the turn doesn't look as much like you bluffed and failed, so his play speaks more about his hand at that point.

I don't play ring at these levels, so I could be mistaken here, but to me the flop call isn't enough to put him on a monster.

$190 on the turn is an odd bet, i think he's full of shit and your Js are good

Originally Posted by jmontis

$190 on the turn is an odd bet, i think he's full of shit and your Js are good

It was about the size of the pot, and he always bet the pot, no matter how huge it was.

In my personal experience, this looks like a bet where he wants you out of the pot. I'd re-raise the turn here.

In my mind there are 2 ways for u to play jacks here...
1-reraise pf to find out if he has a monster.
2-call and look for a set.
U did 2 and missed. This means u have to assume ur beat after ur checkraise.

Originally Posted by Aquinas

In my mind there are 2 ways for u to play jacks here...
1-reraise pf to find out if he has a monster.
2-call and look for a set.
U did 2 and missed. This means u have to assume ur beat after ur checkraise.

You don't vary this at all on an all-unders flop?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

You don't vary this at all on an all-unders flop?

Yes...this is why he checkraises the flop.
After the call here he really has to let it go without a solid read that the guy likes to gamble.

Originally Posted by allLiving

In my personal experience, this looks like a bet where he wants you out of the pot. I'd re-raise the turn here.

You'd raise a $200 bet when I can only beat a bluff or a pair of 10's?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

I see people quite frequently calling check/raises on the flop w/ over cards because they think a check/raise is a standard steal play w/ a safe board.

This is exactly what I was saying.

I didn't mean that I thought you were check raising because you thought he had nothing. I meant that HE thought you were check raising (potentially with any two) because you thought he had nothing. He may infact have a monster. Or he may have almost any two and simply be playing you on what he thinks is an obvious bluff. Betting the turn doesn't look as much like you bluffed and failed, so his play speaks more about his hand at that point.

I don't play ring at these levels, so I could be mistaken here, but to me the flop call isn't enough to put him on a monster.

I don't see why there's any reason to suspect he's calling with nothing on the flop. This is an incredibly rare play.

This type of play is just a pure gamble without a strong read, and most players aren't willing to take it.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

This is exactly what I was saying.

I didn't mean that I thought you were check raising because you thought he had nothing. I meant that HE thought you were check raising (potentially with any two) because you thought he had nothing. He may infact have a monster. Or he may have almost any two and simply be playing you on what he thinks is an obvious bluff. Betting the turn doesn't look as much like you bluffed and failed, so his play speaks more about his hand at that point.

I don't play ring at these levels, so I could be mistaken here, but to me the flop call isn't enough to put him on a monster.

I don't see why there's any reason to suspect he's calling with nothing on the flop. This is an incredibly rare play.

This type of play is just a pure gamble without a strong read, and most players aren't willing to take it.

I think he'd call with any pair and as often as not with overcards. To AK, that flop doesn't look like something either of you hit. He may well think his Ax is better than yours. Or that his pair is better than your AK.

I don't raise his $190 on the turn, but I probably bet out for 1/2 the pot or so - based on the above. I'd fold to a reraise, and feel very confident if he just called.

Reads on what a call from this player mean a lot here. Without them, I'm using the above reasoning.

I see plays like this a lot in the higher-stakes SnGs. If people are tighter/more willing to lay down in higher-stakes ring, then that's another difference to account for however you will.

Against most opps i lead the turn and fold to a raise, against a few i'd lead the turn and be willing to get all my chips in the centre. I really reccomend that you play the party 6max tables rather than full ring on stars or party; it is a much easier game.

i think a re raise pre flop will tell you a lil more about where you stand

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

Against most opps i lead the turn and fold to a raise, against a few i'd lead the turn and be willing to get all my chips in the centre. I really reccomend that you play the party 6max tables rather than full ring on stars or party; it is a much easier game.

Why do you bet on the turn?

I haven't really had trouble with the full ring tables on Poker Stars. There seem to be plenty of weak players, and I'm fairly comfortable playing against stronger players anyways. I actually think it's more fun sometimes.

If you check-raise the flop you have to bet the turn or he figures you're on a draw trying to buy a free card. (defending your blind w J9?) When you check the turn, he's like "f*ck you, no free cards here." Now you're in a bad spot. If you call, he'll bet the river hard. If you reraise, he may check down the river but have you beat. You really needed to throw out $100 on the turn to see where you stand. And being out of position against a big stack is just killin you here... Tough hand. If only you had bet the turn, you may have been able to control the betting. Now, I don't know. Feel like gamblin?

I bet the turn because so many people will just call to see what you do on the turn. If you check raise and then check again that is usually a sign of weakness.

you have to bet the turn here..you check-raise the flop versus the PFR representing a monster...and then you check? no one double check raises, if i was in his spot i would definitely think you were weak.

Re-raise preflop to see where your Jacks are at, if you get re-reraised, fold preflop, unless you have odds to flop a set. If you are just called, it makes this situation a little easier because there is less of a chance of him having an overpair (only somewhat likely one is QQ)

As you played it, fold the turn after the check. If it was me I raise to 90 on the flop and bet out the turn.



-Chris

Many people including myself syked will smooth call a re-raise like that syked

i don't think i would call here. if i was in the hand, i wouldve played it the same way and probably folded thinking he had 1010. i dont see how overcards would call this flop so...

qq - aa would probably re-raise you on that flop.

how did the hand end up ? u fold?

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

Against most opps i lead the turn and fold to a raise, against a few i'd lead the turn and be willing to get all my chips in the centre. I really reccomend that you play the party 6max tables rather than full ring on stars or party; it is a much easier game.

Why do you bet on the turn?

I haven't really had trouble with the full ring tables on Poker Stars. There seem to be plenty of weak players, and I'm fairly comfortable playing against stronger players anyways. I actually think it's more fun sometimes.

saxton i think you would do well at 10/20 personally. im glad you're moving up in stakes. keep the hands coming