What do you think of this play?

I'll admit, this is a bit strange-looking. Here's the hand history:

***** Hand History for Game 2245712336 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Wednesday, June 22, 10:39:00 EDT 2005
Table Table 36666 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Kajdee ( $99.55 )
Seat 3: PlanoSlim416 ( $33.15 )
Seat 5: TLANE71 ( $192.1 )
Seat 6: DayDeLay ( $61.75 )
Seat 2: stressball10 ( $106.15 )
Seat 4: babyerin ( $97 )
Kajdee posts small blind [$0.5].
stressball10 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qs Ac ]
PlanoSlim416 folds.
babyerin folds.
TLANE71 folds.
DayDeLay calls [$1].
Kajdee folds.
stressball10 raises [$2].
DayDeLay calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Qd, 5s ]
stressball10 bets [$4].
DayDeLay calls [$4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
stressball10 checks.
DayDeLay checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
stressball10 bets [$9].
DayDeLay raises [$24].
stressball10 calls [$15].
DayDeLay shows [ 7d, 8h ] two pairs, eights and fives.
stressball10 shows [ Qs, Ac ] two pairs, queens and fives.
stressball10 wins $60.5 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and fives.


My play pre-flop and on the flop was pretty standard, I think. The rest... well, here was my thinking. I didn't think he had the five. I thought he might have a weaker queen or a flush draw. He was a fairly aggressive player that I had seen bluff a lot, and also the type that is common at $100 6max - calls the flop bet no matter what, then waits to see if you check the turn. I was thinking I would check the turn to induce a bluff from him, then come over the top. As it happened, he checked behind, caught a small piece on the river, and read my bet-check-bet line as (I'm guessing) an unimproved AK or AJ, and so raised me, which enabled me to make a lot more on the hand (although for a little extra risk).

Thoughts?

Sounds like your read was g00t. Without a read, I say bet that turn, and run from that river pot raise. But you're obviously better than not playing it like that without one. Nice work. Just curious, if you were certain enough of your hand being tops, why not reraise him all in there instead of just the call of his raise? He must have only had about 30 bucks left, I think. And that is where he really confirmed your theory: by not going all in there instead of just pot betting. Would you have called an all-in there?

I would have bet the turn as well, just because top pair is a vulnerable hand. But since you were expecting him to bet the turn for you, I like it. You sure did look like you were trying to steal the pot on the river.

Originally Posted by alias2211

Sounds like your read was g00t. Without a read, I say bet that turn, and run from that river pot raise. But you're obviously better than not playing it like that without one. Nice work. Just curious, if you were certain enough of your hand being tops, why not reraise him all in there instead of just the call of his raise? He must have only had about 30 bucks left, I think. And that is where he really confirmed your theory: by not going all in there instead of just pot betting. Would you have called an all-in there?

I didn't raise him because of two reasons: one, I rarely raise on the river with as little as a single pair, especially if the board is at all risky (paired, 3 to a flush or straight, etc). There is a place for it but very often that play will cost money. I like my read but I'm not married to it, know what I mean? The other reason is that I actually didn't have him on two pair, I figured after he checked the turn that it was a pure bluff and he wouldn't call a re-raise anyway. His hand was a complete surprise to me.

In answer to your question, I would have called if he had gone all in. But I would have thought about it a lot longer. This was basically an insta-call; I felt very confident in my hand for the price of that raise.

His raise makes no sense to me. He had a fairly good hand. If you indeed were on unimproved big aces, he can just call and win a good-sized pot. If you had AQ or KQ, and he knows you aren't really weak, his silly river raise will not get you to fold. Basically, I think he made the worst move in poker -- betting the river with a medium strength hand. Better hands will not fold, and worse hands you are beating anyway making the bet more risk for no reward.

This being said, his raise on the river looked a lot stronger to me, because I wouldn't expect a raise from such a mediocre holding. I still would've called but I'd feel like I got trapped by a set or strange two pair. Your read on this guy was aggro -- any further detail? Stupid aggro? I'm just getting back into shorthanded play, so these situations are interesting to me.

Stupid aggro is about right. There's a type of player I run into a lot that saves their aggression for the later streets - they call a lot pre-flop and on the flop, and then as you slow down, they speed up. They like to rep big hands on the turn and river, or just get you to lay down the unimproved overcards they are certain you hold each and every time you pre-flop raise.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Stupid aggro is about right. There's a type of player I run into a lot that saves their aggression for the later streets - they call a lot pre-flop and on the flop, and then as you slow down, they speed up. They like to rep big hands on the turn and river, or just get you to lay down the unimproved overcards they are certain you hold each and every time you pre-flop raise.

Shit yea. This kills me sometimes and I just want to punch those stupid bastards in the nose.

I hate that sort of play as well, because it kills my attempts at laggy play. If someone or a few people at the table start playing pots like this with you (calling your raises and continuation bets and turning up the juice on turn and river), what do you do? Do you either continue to apply pressure and hope to pick up a hand to destack them with, or do you change to Tagg, where you're likely to have the best hand going in with them preflop? Is it better to play passively preflop and outplay them on the flop, if not that many pots are raised preflop? Playing the 5-max and 4-max 25$ tables is mind-boggling, but pretty fun. The mistakes are horrendous, but it's easy to get carried away and lose your stack when you forget some people can't fold unimproved high card aces and such.

As a more general question, what is the ideal table for laggy play? I would guess loose/passive/weak, calling too much preflop, and folding too much to strength postflop (and playing back hard only when they have a big hand). One true calling station and a bad run of cards pretty much grinds any of my lagg attempts to a halt. Thanks for your input.

At some tables, all you need to do is raise the good preflop hands and limp the drawing hands. If you get AKo still raise it preflop because its going to win more pots than most of the crap they are calling you with. Even though you are going to have to throw it away half the time when you get callers stuck on your unimproved AK like leeches.

Also, if you raise a lot preflop and you don't think a continuation bet will take it down right there, just play normal poker. Bet and charge the drawers when you have it, fold when you miss. They will notice that you raise a lot more than the other fish and will think that because you play preflop loose that your postflop bets are all bullshit.