What is wrong with me (long)

This post will be particularly self-centered and probably pretty "rambly". I'll also probably repeat myself a whole lot. I'm hoping that writing some of this shit down will help me iron out some issues... Also, mods not sure if this is proper forum, but it's basically about my approach to SH NL hold em so I thought I'd post it here.

I am generally a workhorse. Regardless of the activity, I am prone to long sessions of preparation/practice/studying. During high school I was regularly practicing piano 7 hrs/day on top of class and sports teams. Same can be said of any number of things I became passionate about.

So why do I always feel like stopping poker sessions after like 90 minutes? This is something I really want to look at seriously since I think my limited play is hindering my progress and my bankroll.

It's obv something I have to figure out on my own, but I'm wondering if ppl who regularly play 1k+ hands per session can chime in here (obv I'm thinking of Renton, Gabe, Lukie, Coco but anybody's comments/ideas are appreciated), especially if they had a tough time making their sessions long and productive early on, like I am.

Like I mentioned in my "blog" in poker etcetera, I've moved up in stakes relatively quickly without ever really grinding. This is probably part of it (since the money truly means something to me, even though I have 50+ buy ins for nl400).

Also, I'm still in school and am by no means an online "pro". Deep down, I still feel like a casual player running well.

And yet, for about a year now, most of my waking hours have revolved around poker. While I don't play a lot, I'm constantly reading the forums and railing high-stakes games (I even get a kick out of railing random nl400 games ffs). I also sweat ppl a lot and find that I usually give good advice. Sometimes I think that if I could "sweat myself" I'd be making more money (this is obv a psychology/emotional detachment thing I have to work on).

Something else that's hindering my progress is fear of money. I don't come from a rich family and feel that if I grinded my way up to nl1000 6 max my life would change too much. Somehow it just feels like that would be "too good to be true". This is def related to the fact that I'm extremely confident (maybe too confident). I have very little doubt that if I played a lot more I'd put myself in a situation where by running reasonably well I'd be rolled for nl1000 pretty quickly. Like I mentioned before, this scares me, maybe because all of the other things I've pursued (sports, piano) were never associated with financial gain. I just did those things because I loved doing them.

Rereading what I've written so far, something that just struck me is that if I were sitting at play money tables, I'd probably play even more. I think money has gotten between me and my love of the game. I keep my sessions short because of some compulsive "voice" telling me that, since this is for a lot of money, I want to be consistently at the "top of my game". So instead of sticking around at a table when I'm up 3-4 buy ins, I simply leave, happy to take my profits and run, instead of suffering a beat or two and tilting. I can think of a session when I first started playing nl400 where I won 2700$ in under 200 hands and just stopped. I definitely slept well that night but left a lot of money on the table.

I'm not really sure if I'm "getting to the bottom" of anything, but I think this is the heart of my current situation :

-I love poker, but I don't love money. As soon as I got to the point where I was making 140$+/hr I started feeling guilty for not playing and started to feel like poker was more of a job than a game

-making a lot of money scares me

-I am probably too picky about being on my "A game" ( I never play cash games when I'm tired or emotionally fucked up or I just don't really really want to play)

-when I actually do sit down and play, despite having a complete disregard for money (sometimes too reckless I'm starting to think) in the context of the "game", I AM very emotionally attached to the money won/lost when looking at a session. So my emotional state is affected a fair amount by the results of poker when I'm not playing. This sucks. I felt happier in general when I took a break a few weeks ago.

-I haven't logged enough cash-games hands to truly feel that my sample-size is solid. Maybe 50-60k total, only 35k ish since I started using Pokertracker. Maybe I'm just an overaggro fish running good.

-I haven't had an earth-shattering downswing since my first few thousand hands of nl100. (don't know why, but not having been fucked a lot by variance makes me feel like less of a player)

-all of this ambivalent "love it/hate it" state emanated from my decision to take poker seriously a couple months ago after getting a pretty sweet Rakeb ack deal. Ironically, since then, I've played less, not more, but have studied the game much more.

-I am very goal-oriented and think maybe I need a more concrete goal to chase ("play 15k hands this month" doesn't seem to cut it)

Hmmm. That was even longer and "ramblier" than I thought it'd be. Maybe I'll post some shorter follow-up ideas later. Like I already said, any input at all is appreciated. And (obviously) not looking for "precriptions" or answers, any ideas/thoughts at all would be cool.

Sir, you sound exactly like I have for the last x number of months.If youre living off your roll, not playing enough is just as expensive as tilt is. This fact has cost me most of my bankroll in a time period where my bankroll is of supreme importance (switching from LHE to NL and paying the learning curve). I offer you no words of wisom but be careful and cognizant.

Winrate + Hands played = profit.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Sir, you sound exactly like I have for the last x number of months.If youre living off your roll, not playing enough is just as expensive as tilt is. This fact has cost me most of my bankroll in a time period where my bankroll is of supreme importance (switching from LHE to NL and paying the learning curve). I offer you no words of wisom but be careful and cognizant.

Winrate + Hands played = profit.

no kidding euph

in my situation, my poker roll won't be touched anytime soon so I don't even "have" to play as I'm not living off my roll and won't be anytime soon.

The obvious formula you mentioned flashes through my mind quite a bit when I read or party or waste my time running after girls on many nights... which leads to the whole "feeling guilty about not playing" which... makes me not want to play.

Maybe I should just stop trying to have my cake and eat it too and accept that playing won't always be fun.

But it seemed like playing always WAS fun when I was mindlessly chasing bonuses/learning to not be a donk/building my roll without tracking it.

I think I'd be more prepared to accept the grind of it all if I was playing out of necessity...

If you're getting bored and feeling the grind try making fun of people in the chat window. That always livens things up.

Kinda joking but also kind of serious...

Originally Posted by Galapogos

If you're getting bored and feeling the grind try making fun of people in the chat window. That always livens things up.

Kinda joking but also kind of serious...

lol THIS IS SOOOO TRUE

new goal : find one person to berate at every table = instant fun

play donkaments and/or other games (maybe omaha?).

agree Johnny

I've played some donakements and donk n go's (including going pretty deep in the mill cpl weeks back) but the core of my game is (and should be) def cash games.

Your problem "making a lot of money scares me"

I was following you until "I was making 140$+/hr"

If you don't care about the money, and want to learn. Then move down a level and splash around, learn what you can and can't get away with.

Go hit up the ladies, if you need more money for the ladies then come back to poker for a night, otherwise snatch up the money hungry bitches and show them why you're not the man (NWA).

Start giving your winnings to charity.

If someone has an answer to "why do I always feel like stopping poker sessions after like 90 minutes?" I would like to hear it. I have the same problem, except I love money.

Is there a question in there somewhere?

I'll give you an answer.

Keep playing to the point that it's fun. Play stakes your comfortable at in games you can beat. If it's not fun, do something else. Don't treat your bankroll like a pro, treat it as part of your larger budget.

It takes heart to play poker well. A delicate mix of "Devil may care" with keen observation. Sometimes, mentally I'm not there. So I address that by not playing. When I am there, I play. When the table is good I play. If there is a sucker at the table, I gamble until he's bust or I'm too tired to push on.

That's how I do it and I'm still playing.

Look at all of the FTR regulars that used to post a lot and don't play anymore. I went to a party at Tyson's place a week ago and heard some stories, but can guess the rest. Ran worse than they could handle, took shots and had the Peter Principal hit them upside the face. A few others burned out. I'm not even in the ballpark of being the biggest winner nor the best player. Yet, I'm still cashing out regularly and having fun playing and talking about poker. I probably still will 5 years from now.

I don't worry about win-rates. I don't try to push my limit of 3 or 4 tables (depending on the game.) I fire up some tables, have fun playing poker then blow the money on stuff in life that I enjoy since I already live a lifestyle below the income I make from my regular job (which I also enjoy.)

Food for thought.

ty for replies

no Fnord, there isn't really a simple question in my OP... But from what I know of you, poker has a very specific place in your life ("serious" hobby?). I am hoping to find the right place for poker in my life right now and I'm still searching.

The simple act of having money doesn't excite me all that much. That's probably something completely unrelated (like finding a "useful" way of using money) that I will deal with on my own.

If there were some way of viewing poker as an online RPG where moving up levels = ranking up I think it'd be useful to me. Because I really dig it. I love watching ppl play and watching the game... I guess you could say "for the sake of the game" if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Is there a question in there somewhere?

I'll give you an answer.

Keep playing to the point that it's fun. Play stakes your comfortable at in games you can beat. If it's not fun, do something else. Don't treat your bankroll like a pro, treat it as part of your larger budget.

It takes heart to play poker well. A delicate mix of "Devil may care" with keen observation. Sometimes, mentally I'm not there. So I address that by not playing. When I am there, I play. When the table is good I play. If there is a sucker at the table, I gamble until he's bust or I'm too tired to push on.

That's how I do it and I'm still playing.

Look at all of the FTR regulars that used to post a lot and don't play anymore. I went to a party at Tyson's place a week ago and heard some stories, but can guess the rest. Ran worse than they could handle, took shots and had the Peter Principal hit them upside the face. A few others burned out. I'm not even in the ballpark of being the biggest winner nor the best player. Yet, I'm still cashing out regularly and having fun playing and talking about poker. I probably still will 5 years from now.

I don't worry about win-rates. I don't try to push my limit of 3 or 4 tables (depending on the game.) I fire up some tables, have fun playing poker then blow the money on stuff in life that I enjoy since I already live a lifestyle below the income I make from my regular job (which I also enjoy.)

Food for thought.

This is awesome. Someday I hope to be able to make this same post.

Gen, right now, with the future of online poker uncertain, I am really just pounding out hands. I'm playing more now then I ever have in my life (or poker career which is still in it's second year). The past month or so, I've been knocking off 4-5k hands a day quite routinely, sometimes more, sometimes less. As far as the mental aspect, it's really hard to say. Sometimes I just get so stressed and worn out, and others, I feel like I'm just this emotional rock (when playing poker) and don't get phased in the least by tilt, variance, yadayadayada. The more I play, the more I feel like I'm becoming the latter.

When I tell people to stop complaining about variance, a lot of times they will tell me that it's selfish of me to say it, and to just wait until I run bad (again, yadayadayada). To that I always have to laugh because I've had stretches of running ungodly bad and stretches where I'm just getting an amazing run of cards. I feel that I'm a good enough of a player to tell the difference. You don't play 100k+ hands in a month and not run into tough spots, believe me . Anyway, I only bring this up because poker isn't really fun for me anymore in the classic sense.

When I first started playing, I'd always get the rush and scream in joy when I won a big pot, or I'd get drawn out and start berating the other player while cussing out my monitor. Looking back on these things (which I still do from time to time to be honest), you kind of miss them. I'm not going to say that I love playing poker, but it's certainly not something that I hate doing and truthfully, it's kind of fun sometimes in the 'building a house' type of fun. I'd compare it in that regard to working out.. it's not really fun but knowing that you're working towards something, it's a good feeling. But damn, it is stressful sometimes (keep in mind that I've been 12 tabling 6max lately). Like I said before though, I actually feel this is becoming a smaller problem as I continue, and not a bigger one. This might have to do with the fact that I continue to play in the same game with an ever-increasing bankroll, which leads me to my next point.........

bankroll management. Play with a big cushion. No, scratch that, play with a HUGE cushion. Many would consider me to be comfortably rolled for 10/20, but I am content playing 2/4 right now. There are still a lot of holes in my game (both that I'm aware of and ones that I'm sure I'm not). I certainly have ambitions of being a big-time winner at the nosebleed stakes, but I'm just not good enough yet. Anyway if you're playing with triple digit buyins to back you up, the standard hourly, daily, hell, even weekly swings don't both you so much. Instead you can just focus on trying to play your best poker, one hand at a time, because that's really what it's all about.

i used to have trouble playing long sessions, but now I don't anymore, and I have been playing 3k+ hands every day. I have never played more than about 8k hands in a day before, and that took me like 10 hours.

Small disclaimer: I've also been losing money in pretty much every session. I have yet to correlate this fact with whether I have trouble with long sessions or not.

Also, make sure to take pissbreaks and the like every 1000 hands or so (1000 hands takes me about 75 minutes, so do the math for your sessions).

Along those lines, renton, I've found I can do several seperate 1-hour sessions much easier than I can do one marathon session.

So try literally planning it into your day. From 11-12, you play poker. Take a break, do something else. From 2-3, play poker. Take a break, get some food. From 6-7, play some poker. Take a break. Then depending on when you want sleep, throw in one more night session, 9-10ish or 11-12ish, or whatever.

Thats four hours of poker, and its not too hard to do. It's significantly more fun than a 4-hour session.

TY all again for the replies. I know the "subject" of my OP is pretty hard to put your finger on, but I truly appreciate you guys taking the time for any comments, even about pissbreaks.

Lukie thx for the advice. I have been struggling to find a balance between your advice and aba's advice on 2p2 who advocates playing stakes where "it hurts to lose". I tend to perform better under pressure but obviously the stress factor "outside" of poker (i.e. before and after a session) increases when I do this. That being said, I'm a bit of a BR nit and can't ever remember playing a game with less than 40 buy ins...

I might drop down to nl200 and aim for a rakeba ck goal for a month regardless of how I run. 2 things about this I worry about are not being exposed to the somewhat better competition at 2/4 and not taking advantage of the fish around while online poker in the U.S. is viable... But maybe playing with 100+ buy ins will lessen the effect on the "rest of my life" and keep me thinking exclusively about the game, rather than the swings.

Still not sure what I think about the whole playing lower stakes stunting your developement thing. By not exposing yourself to a better player pool you probably slow down your learning curve but definitely are exposed to fewer stressful situations...

I know I'm pretty scatterbrained at the moment but the above-mentioned issue also makes me feel torn. When I play nl200 I sometimes laugh at how easily most players give up on pots whereas typical nl400 players c raise innocent flops and float so much more. I have to find the right formula for me and I'm really exploring all the possibilities in the process.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Gen, right now, with the future of online poker uncertain, I am really just pounding out hands. I'm playing more now then I ever have in my life (or poker career which is still in it's second year).

Originally Posted by Lukie

Many would consider me to be comfortably rolled for 10/20, but I am content playing 2/4 right now.

Somehow these statements seem contradictory.

If 200NL is really easy maybe you can make enough to pad your roll so that the 400NL money isn't as important anymore?

Or you could start at 200NL and if you're up 200 move up to 400NL and play there, then when you get up another 200 take a shot at 600NL. That would allow you to play against the tougher opponents and work on your game while still playing inside your roll. Not sure if that makes sense.

Genitruc,

I've had the same problems as you, but I've found that a good way of forcing myself to play a long session is to register for a $5 or $10 MTT that I don't care about, and a few cash game tables, and keep playing cash games until I bust out of the MTT.

Lukie:

...When I tell people to stop complaining about variance, a lot of times they will tell me that it's selfish of me to say it, and to just wait until I run bad...

Lukie, you play so many damned hands! the "average" player's downswing of 2k hands takes you about 3 hrs to get through...lol. you have more "swings" in a month than most of us have in a year. when i played more, i used to tell my brother, when he ran bad, to play more hands and "power thru" the variance. it took him weeks to log the hands i would in days; therefore, his swings lasted much longer.

anyway, Gen, it sounds like you need to "look inside" a bit. if you feel it is your "fear of $$" holding you back, you need to find your passion...completely independent of $$. money doesnt (and shouldnt) motivate ALL people, obviously.

money, also, doesnt motivate ALL poker players, either. if poker is your passion, find something else inside the realm of poker that motivates you...and make that the center of your goals...your barometer, if you will. you dont need to chase the almighty dollar to be a great poker player...just find what you are willing to chase, and get after it.

maybe its win rate. you know, that silly number of BBs you win for every 100 hands you are dealt. focusing on that number CAN get your mind off of the $$'s and focus it on playing your best in all situations, independent of stakes.

or, focus on taking notes on specific situations that always come up...or devise a system by which you "read" players, or pick up online tells. focus on playing hands to "research" your theories for a possible book someday.

fear of money/success is VERY common in people, but a certain amount of it IS necessary to live the lifestyle you desire (i hope there are future goals in this area, at least). it may not even be poker, but the only advice related to your OP is to find your passion and "trick" your mind into focusing on something other than money. hopefully, what you choose (to trick your mind) will bring the money (maybe not a lot...if thats your goal) with it and you never worry about too much or too little money.

you seem like a "young" guy. sometimes it takes time to find your true passion. dont rush it. try lots of things. and keep your eyes open to possibility. you WILL find your source of motivation.

not to relate things to money, but SAM WALTON started WAL-MART very late compared to most "successful" people, and look what happened to him when he found his passion.

Godspeed.

Pretty much what Lukie said is pretty spot on, and Fnord's post as well (although more of a personal thing). You have to find out why you play poker and what your goals are. I used to play shorter sessions when winning and longer ones when losing. But I think I've started to grow out of that habit and I just play based on hands per day rather than results. Now I tend to play 4 hour sessions usually playing 6 - 8 tables every other day. I try to play every day but usually that doesn't end up happening, although I've tried recently.

Playing at a lower limit than normal can help with that so you aren't affected much by wins or losses. Rakeback is also a nice incentive. You can make 2-3k a month easily just on rakeback alone playing 1/2+.

Good posts by all so far. I really like this thread.

One thing to say concering BR management. When I play with a thin cover I tend to see the chips as money value and play worse. I chase, gamble, and just overall self destruct. When I play with a huge BR cushion, I'm like a machine. I don't care about results, I care about good play. I see the chips as BBs. I can grind. I actually win.

Bigred plays poker?



Sorry, I know, joke has been made 100 times but it had to be said.

Way to ruin another thread trying to mask your bigred mancrush by making fun of me!

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by Lukie

Gen, right now, with the future of online poker uncertain, I am really just pounding out hands. I'm playing more now then I ever have in my life (or poker career which is still in it's second year).

Originally Posted by Lukie

Many would consider me to be comfortably rolled for 10/20, but I am content playing 2/4 right now.

Somehow these statements seem contradictory.

I guess I should have said with the future of online poker in the US uncertain. If worst comes to worse, Windsor is about 3 hours away and I could always move up there, and continue playing online and live as well too. It's not like I have a GF or any major real life responsibilities (not sure if these things are good or bad).

I'll stop saying thx for replies cuz it gets redundant...

but thx for the replies

The intersection of $$$ and "finding your passion" is maybe different for me than a lot of people. I'm 25 and currently working on a doctorate in classical music (lol moneyaments). So in response to Chopper (awesome post btw) I'm used to pursuing things for the sake of the activity rather than $$$$. This is why the $ fucks up my relationship with poker. I'm convinced if it were just some sort of nerdy online thing with no $$ incentive, I'd be playing more... I thought the rakeb ack incentive would help but it hasn't so far.

A lot of this is just me being whiny, wanting everything to be easy and perfect (always "wanting" to play, always wanting it to be fun, blah blah...). I've gone through this cycle probably 2 or 3 times before in my life (getting pretty good at something and then really struggling psychologically before getting over some sort of hump). The difference in this case is the fear/guilt related to making (or NOT making) $$$. It's not really an issue that has come up before for me, as I've been lucky enough to get by without working too many shitty jobs by doing whatever I did really well through a ton of hard work.

My confusion aside, a few really good things I've taken away from this so far :

fnord : more important to not burn out and keep enjoying it than t0 go apeshit and play 50k hands/month for 3 months then puke at the very thought of poker

lukie : thinking of it as slowly building something. I like the "working out" metaphor.

lots of ppl : playing at a stake that really doesn't dent your br if the swings are affecting you a whole lot (so you don't lose sleep over a bad session)

and, maybe my favourite (Chopper) : find parameters for assessing your session outside of $$$ earned/lost (this may seem obvious, but I think it will help me a lot).

All of this stuff is pretty straightforward "life wisdom". But it's really good to consolidate it, especially when it's coming from other ppl. Yay FTR.

btw. I'm from Windsor and I'll be there for Christmas break Lukie.

HU FOR BANKROLLS AT 25-50NL PRIVATE TABLE IN POKER PLACE AT CASINO WINDSOR???!!! GABE WILL BACK ME HE SAYS YOU'RE A NIT...

i gotta tell you, Gen, that "going through the cycle..." and. then, "getting over some sort of hump" IS your metaphor for life...and you came up with that one on your own.

the thing about failure is: It doesnt matter if you are afraid of failure or success. To have one, you MUST experience the other.

you may be a lot like i was/still am, but i have almost learned to "embrace" failure (again 'tricking' my mind by telling/focusing it on something else). how many times did you fall learning to walk as a toddler? lots. but, did that stop you? no (at least, i hope you dont still crawl around...lol.).

somewhere, my guess is our teen years, we start to learn to fear consequences/risks. some of us (humans) recognize this and say, "F*** that!! I will never succeed until i fail." and others say, "I will never fail at anything again." you tell me which ones are the true "leaders." FTR is full of both, but it is pretty easy to pick out the "leaders."

one more tidbit...Abraham Lincoln was victorious in ONLY ONE election, but he ran in about 10. what would this country be like if he had been afraid of failing/succeeding.

food for thought.