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What you need to learn to move up and win

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  1. #1

    Default What you need to learn to move up and win

    This is my article contribution to those players who are having trouble winning and moving up. I have been playing 6 max for over a year now, and eventhough I have not move up a lot(I had a solid bankroll from FR pre UIGEA) I feel I can give a solid perspective on some things that a lot of players seem to be struggling with. I have divided this up into 2 parts, basic and advanced. The basic parts are things that ANY player can do and get better at, the advanced parts are things you need to improve in order to win as you move up.


    Basics

    1. Hand reading
    This is the something every player has, however it may be the one skill with the greatest difference from the bad to the good to the great. Your ability to read hands should determine what type of playing style you should employ to be a winner. I would never advocate a nitty game(12/10 ish), but there are players playing at 200+, who are winning playing this style. If you are average at reading hands you probably should be playing a tight TAG style around 15/12. As your ability gets better you should begin to open up more. There are only a handful of winners players at 200nl that have a PFR over 18%. This increases the farther you move up as the players get much better. There is no shame in playing tighter in order to win.

    2. Stats
    PT gives a ton of stats to look at and analyze, not to mention the additional stats PAHUD has to offer. Everywhere you look someone is posting stats asking what they need to improve. I spent a lot of time looking at these postings looking at the differeneces between the winners and the losers. This post would get way to long for me to do into great detail, but there are several stats that vary greatly for both winners and losers, ie turn and river AF. On the flip side there are certain stats that only the strong players are good at, ie W$WSF. Your stats will not fix themselves without playing better, but you need to know what you are looking at to see if you are getting better.

    3. Table/Seat selection
    This has been said many times, but you need to sit at a table where you have an edge. Now the edge may vary greatly on the table, but more important is your SEAT selection. I can sit at a table with a very low flop % and a low pot average and win steadily if I have a good seat. For any player a good seat is with position on the fish, with nits on your left. The better your seat selection the better your edge will be.

    Advanced

    1. Understand ranges and the math behind them
    This the next step in hand reading. Suaces guide is an excellent example of how just understanding preflop ranges can improve your game dramatically. If you take his guide as a starting point you are able extrapolate that to form a solid postflop game by only putting your opponent on a range. Poker Stove is the must have tool to help. Run ranges through to check your PF calling ranges vs a typical PFR on any flop. Learn the math behind your equity, their range, shoving, calling, and how bet sizing can influence your decisions. Whether you like it or not there are very very few "feel" players out there who do not have a good understanding of the math and still win at a good clip.

    2. Play Positionally Strong
    No matter what level your at you will make more money from the button and cutoff. You need to learn to play these positions well. I spent a lot time thinking I was playing well in these spot, but realized I could be playing much better. Experiment with a lot of things in these spots and versus all players. Learn to defend your button, and what it takes to exploit players who play too much oop.

    3. Blind Play
    The flip side of strong opp play is strong blind play. All solid winners at all levels play well in the blinds. In a typical 6 max game, you may play as much or more than 40% of your overall hands from the blinds. The one thing I figured out was that if you only play about 15% of your hands and win about 1.00 ptbb/hand with them you will break even in the SB and lose about 0.10 ptbb/ hand in the BB. Remember that 15% includes all your big pairs, AK, etc. There are many many players who are just horrible in the blinds, including many winning TAGs who just try and do too much or are just plain bad oop.

    4. Player Reads
    Everytime a player bets, calls, raises etc, he gives off a read. Most players play their hands the same way. They raise sets here or bluff there, but whatever it is they never change. The rest of the players give off reads to form an image. They use their image to exploit you or anyone else. The top players use their image to the fullest extent. You need to learn when they are making plays because of there image. This is the basis for multi level thinking. Typically the players who are giving you trouble are using their image and are one step ahead of you.

    5. Your Image
    Again this is the flip side of player reads. Everytime you make a decisions you give off a read. The summation of the reads you are givving off, forms your image. By understanding your image, you will be able to exploit more regulars and become a bigger winner. There are a lot of posts on this forum where someone comments about Sauce or Gabe or ISF making a bluff or play they don't understand. Most of the time it involves their image or them giving off a read to furthur exploit their table or a particular player. Learn to understand your image, and you will be better able to exploit those pesky regulars.


    Once you become better and learn these concepts, you will become better at 3betting, you will be better at reading flop texture and cbetting, you will have the ability to know when to raise a Cbet or even a blocking bet and know that it is +EV, you will be able to adjust to almost any player and exploit them, you will know when to apply constant pressure, you will have selective aggression, and you will know when to try that big bluff shove so you can PM it to ISF.
  2. #2
    I mean tbh, most people I talk to who struggle at 200nl and then finally move up have this one breakthrough moment where they realize essentially that poker is all about ranges and how to apply them.

    Nothing you wrote is wrong though.
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  3. #3
    Most of this is meant for those not yet at 200nl, I think a lot of whom have need to look at things differently.
    "It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
  4. #4
    nice post Jager

    I'd enjoy reading a post regarding some of your specific strategies for playing out of the blinds if you ever felt inclined to write about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
    nice post Jager

    I'd enjoy reading a post regarding some of your specific strategies for playing out of the blinds if you ever felt inclined to write about it.
    QFT

    I'm clueless in the blinds, I merely see them as a change in pot odds and I think this may be a leak.
  6. #6
    Halv's Avatar
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    No hindsight for the blind.
    Yeah blind play 101 please!
  7. #7
    will641's Avatar
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    wow this is really great. thanks. this is the kind of stuff that helps me the most.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  8. #8
    As requested
    Blind Play 101

    First lets look at the basic scenarios:

    Small Blind
    Folded to you in the SB. If you filter PT by checking SB and chanced to steal and raised, you get the hands where it was folded to you and you chose to defend. Also note that you only see a flop around 70% in this spot(also checked there was no flop) . This should be about 8% of all hands played in the SB.

    Now lets assume that we only defend with the best ~15% of our hands. This includes limpers or raisers. According to Poker Stove, this range may look like 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KQo. In this range 8.3% are 22+, AQ/AK. We can obviously debate the remainder of this range, but I am sure it will vary player to player based on which types of hands they play best. Now this range is 14.6 %, if we are able to get 1.0 ptbb/100 out of this range we get the EV calc:

    Folding SB + Our 14.6% defending + SB v BB
    -0.25(.786) + 1.00(.1343) + .30(.08)

    =-.04 ptbb/ hand

    Big Blind
    The Big Blind is a little easier. If we filter PT for BB and no money in, we get the hands that are folded to us, limped, or we fold. For me this is about 85% of all hands in the BB, and as expected I am losing but only about .30 ptbb/hand(after I first did this I got this # down to .25). Now if we defend again with our ~15% range and get 1.00 ptbb/hand, we get:

    -.30(.85) + 1.00(.15)

    = -.10

    Now if you check your Position Stats tab are you running (.10) and (.04) out of your blinds?

    What if we only get .75 ptbb/hand?
    BB=(.14) SB = (.07)
    Are you this good? If you check your DB, there aren't many who are.

    How about .50 ptbb/hand?
    BB= (.18) SB = (.10)

    When I first did this I was at (.18) and (.12), yes I sucked. I realized that no matter how bad I ran that over any decent sample I was ALWAYS up money from UTG -> BTN, so if I could just minimize my losses in the blinds, I would always be a winner. I am not quite there yet, but my new total(SB + BB) is around (.20) instead of (.30), so over a 100k hand sample where I play about 40k in the blinds, this improvement equals $4,000 at 1/2, or 1.0ptbb/100 overall.

    It is really too hard to get into specific strategies. You really need to consider the table dynamics and how each individual player responds to your actions in the blinds. Lets take a look at some common player types:

    Hates 3bet guy:
    These guys hate the 3bets and usually fold or c/f the flop.

    Hates Donk bet guy:
    These guys fold off any flop they don't hit.

    Aggro guy:
    This is the guy who steals then calls all 3bets or raises almost all donk bets, no matter what. I found that these are the easiest to WIN against. If you play a good range of calling PP and maybe Axs, you call then bet 3bet all your flush draws and sets and he will never know what hit him.

    Another thing to consider are that it is hard to show a profit, even in multi way pots, playing SCs or other low suited type hands by just calling. There are alot of players out there who call with big suited hands opp so alot of the time you may only be drawing to your str8 when you hit. If there is an UTG raise and a caller, you are better off just folding, if there is a LP raise and a caller, you are better off squeezing.


    I hope this stuff helps, are there any other requests?
  9. #9
    Hopefully you or someone else who does play well from the blinds can figure out what i am not doing well from the blinds based on these numbers...


    (newer database so only 16k hand sample). My VPIP/PFR are 21/17.


    SB: +0.35BB/hand

    This only accounts for 4.5% of my total hands in the SB. I assume this is a combination of me not stealing enough as well as my opponents in the BB defending frequently.


    Without any filters, i am -0.27BB/hand from the SB.


    BB: -0.29BB/hand

    This accounts for about 85% of all my hands from this position.


    Without any filters, i am -0.23BB/hand from the BB.


    SB:
    WTSD: 24.3%
    Won $ @ SD: 37.3%

    BB:
    WTSD: 23.1%
    Won $ @ SD: 47.9%


    I don't understand where you are getting the 1.00ptbb/100 number from - is it an ideal winrate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  10. #10
    So you are saying that you lose .50 bb/hand collectively in the blinds?

    If you mean the 1.oo pt/hand as far as defending with 15% goes, then it is more of my goal, but may very well be ideal...

    22+ and AQ/AK should be over 1.00 bb/hand from any position, now if you can get another 6% or so of hands that you can play at .50 bb/hand, then you should play well in the blinds. A lot of players might start stealing relentlessly against you, but you will be losing a lot less.

    Lets say you can get 0.75 bb/hand when you defend either blind, you will lose -.21 total out of both blinds. This would add almost 3.00 ptbb/100 to your overall winrate.
    "It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
  11. #11
    Wait is it actually possible to be a winner from the blinds? I've never seen that before over a large sample...
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
    Wait is it actually possible to be a winner from the blinds? I've never seen that before over a large sample...
    I don't think so, but I can see it to be very possible to be breakeven in the SB, and only lose (.10) bb/hand in the BB. What are you currently losing in both blinds? Can you improve that total by .10? If you due your overall winrate will improve 1.00ptbb/100.

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