what's our play against terrible player?

i'm going to copy zook and do a multi-part question...

horrible loose passive calling station limps UTG.
hero is dealt in MP.

what should hero do?

Raise to isolate

Originally Posted by minSim

Raise to isolate

Hero raises to 4.5bb. Button calls. Blinds fold. horrible player calls.

flop comes (pot = 15bb)

horrible player checks. what is hero's play and why?

1`/2 POT bet then try to check/call down turn/river for reasonalbe bets - be prepared to fold to any aggression (especially against loose passives) because i think we are PROBABLY ahead, but we don't want to get nuts with an overcard to our hand up there....

check the flop

preflop: fold or raise to isolate
flop: bet between 1/2 and 2/3 pot. it's a value bet. and a bet to make him pay for any draws he might be on.
fold to aggression. try check the hand down. maybe make a value bet on the river if you think he's bad enough to pay you off.
we bet small on the flop to keep the pot small since we don't have a great hand.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

check the flop

for what reasons? do you think we're beat already? induce a bluff the next street? button worries you?

I think we need to bet this flop, for value and to isolate with fish.

I think we'll be very lost in this hand if we check, button bets in position and fish undoubtedly calls.. then what?? whats our plan for the turn?

If we bet, and button calls, we can check the turn and see how it plays out.

I think checking here is admitting you don't have an ace, which is fine against the fish but creates problems if button is at all decent. I bet 3/4 pot.

I really did not notice the button was in the pot

Iso'd against the fish Im checking the flop

Hero bets 12.5bb (i guess this was too much, but i purposely bet relatively large to persuade both of them to fold).
Button folds.
Horrible player calls.

the turn comes and Horrible player checks. (pot = 40bb)
Hero ...

This is a very tricky spot, luckily the pot is small. Their most likely hands are AX, small pair, f/d, gssd.

The flop is super scary, so you are really unlikely to get called by a worse hand - except on a heart draw.

Meh, I think a small bet (1/2 pot) or a check are both OK. You have some showdown value, and no one is likely to bluff (except maybe if they call a bet and a heart falls)

Full stacks I usually like 2nd barreling ~1/2 pot here. But it depends on your image and how bad he is. Has he seen you bluff? Has he called 3 barrels with TP low kicker?

I think you could bet a little over half pot, thereby not giving drawing hands correct odds and possibly get him to fold A_rag as well.

But against calling stations I prefer to check & get a cheap showdown, rather waiting till I have a good ace (or better) to value bet the turn next time. I think this ensures you win/lose small to medium pots with your marginal hands against them, where they possibly fail to value bet the better hand, and you win larger pots with your good hands because they call incorrectly & that is your consistent edge.

Originally Posted by zook

Full stacks I usually like 2nd barreling ~1/2 pot here. But it depends on your image and how bad he is. Has he seen you bluff? Has he called 3 barrels with TP low kicker?

i was running 24/15 at this table. just the usual TAG-like plays, like raising and cbetting. i've taken 2 medium sized pots off him (i raise AK, he reraises all in short stack ~20bb i instacall, he shows 66 and i spike...another one i get AA and he stacks off another 20bb with A4 on xx4 flop)....like...he's horrible.

he was running 57/12 at my table.

preflop fine - raise 5x to isolate.
Postflop I usually check this - reason being if you bet you are over-repping your hand, they will likely give you credit for the ace which will make getting value out of weaker hands more difficult on later streets, also another factor is that there are no overcards that can hurt your hand on the turn.

On this sort of flop with your sort of hand the most value your likely to get is if they try to bluff you.

Flush draws are slightly less likely seeing as the Ah and Kh are out.

As played check turn.

This is not the spot to play a big pot against him. You have position so control the size of the pot. I don't care how bad he is he cannot call more barrells on that board with just an underpair.

I'd bet the flop not too hard, then check behind on the turn, and hope I can check behind on the river again. If he bets anything sizeable on the river he probably has the ace (or better).

i find horrible players love to play aces. I would just play a small pot here..

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

like...he's horrible.

If he's that bad, then check behind turn. Probably call a river bet, but it depends on the size.

ok, guess i messed up the turn.

Hero bets 30bb.
Horrible player calls.

river is (pot is 100bb)
Horrible player checks, Hero checks (wondering how he got himself into a 100bb pot with less than top pair)

Horrible player shows

I think you should assume lots of limps from bad players are weak aces.

I hate to say I told you so....

Anyways, betting the flop is a mistake against the field here. What are we afraid of giving a scare card to? A 2 outer? We actually let the bad player play perfectly against our hand as I don't see him calling anywhere with an underpair on this board.

Betting the turn is downright spewtastic against a calling station who will most likely give you a free showdown.

horrible loose passive calling station

Why are so many people suggesting an obviously incorrect second barrel. Stop bluffing calling stations!! The money comes from making a hand and value betting.

I personally would check/flop bet most turns and check behind river. I think it wins the most/loses the least and Im not upset about giving a free card in a tiny pot when we might not be ahead anyway.

as crazy as it sounds i thought i was value betting my K the whole time...

board: Ah Kh 6s

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.551% 32.77% 04.78% 51259 7477.50 { KsJd }
Hand 1: 62.449% 57.67% 04.78% 90206 7477.50 { AQo-A2o, K2o+ }


You need him to have total rubbish ALOT to value bet more than 1 street.

If you check the flop and bet a blank turn then he probably calls with weaker PPs that he might have folded on the flop.

If you bet the flop he might call with them. If you bet the turn aswell even a horrible calling station isnt calling with 55. I think you are way behind his 2 street calling range. Take a free card and bet if you hit or free showdown if you miss.

Originally Posted by Pelion

If you bet the turn aswell even a horrible calling station isnt calling with 55. I think you are way behind his 2 street calling range.2

Hah! Come play in my games!