What's your line?

Do you reraise here or just call? If you just call, what's your plan on the river?

***** Hand History for Game 2832269436 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, October 05, 22:09:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 54822 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: Kung_Moffe ( $54.55 )
Seat 5: luvspokah ( $188.45 )
Seat 1: kjs22 ( $108.81 )
Kung_Moffe posts small blind [$0.25].
luvspokah posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to luvspokah [ Ad Qc ]
kjs22 calls [$0.50].
Kung_Moffe calls [$0.25].
luvspokah raises [$1.50].
kjs22 calls [$1.50].
Kung_Moffe folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 8h, 5c ]
gunther2783 has joined the table.
luvspokah bets [$3].
kjs22 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
luvspokah bets [$8].
kjs22 raises [$16].
luvspokah...

wow... seems like a set... i think if it was me i'd just call down for as cheap as possible. Maybe that's to conservative.

Yea, against a flop cold call and a turn raise, I wouldn't treat your hand any differently than TPTK. Its still strong, you're still ahead of weird 2 pairs, but most legit hands that are raising here have you beat. Its definitely not a fold but it is definitely cheap showdown time unless you have a read.

call
hope for a miricle river
if nothing comes then bet how much you want to pay to showdown
if raised significanlty id fold, but even against the supposed set this is tough to lay down unless against a push or big river reraise.

Yea you can't go around folding to every little minraise that people throw at you, but you don't want to get too crazy either. Show down cheaply and keep at it.

I did what you guys suggested, but it turns out he had the weird two pair and I could've made more money on my top two.

luvspokah calls [$8].
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
luvspokah checks.
kjs22 checks.
luvspokah shows [ Ad, Qc ] two pairs, aces and queens.
kjs22 doesn't show [ 8d, 5d ] two pairs, eights and fives.
luvspokah wins $41.50 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and queens.

yeah ok you didnt make 'the most' out of this hand but the turn reraise is dangerous to you knowing how many opps will play the set here. as they say two pair isnt a license to print money so keep it a cheap showdown, but i still think you show down against anything but a river push or huge overbet

Originally Posted by twosevoff

I did what you guys suggested, but it turns out he had the weird two pair and I could've made more money on my top two.

Not necessarily...against weak players you might get a call if you push, but many times a turn push is going to scare off everything your beating and get called by everything that has your ass kicked so you dont end up making more money playing it that way. By simply calling you keep the pot size manageable, don't get stacked when your behind, and you give weak hands a chance to get overplayed = more money in the long run.

A somewhat safe way to get even more money out of the hand could possibly have been to bet the river. In EP you can consider it a value bet / blocking bet and in last pos you can bet again if you think you're ahead, but you have to fold to a raise.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

call
hope for a miricle river
if nothing comes then bet how much you want to pay to showdown
if raised significanlty id fold, but even against the supposed set this is tough to lay down unless against a push or big river reraise.

I don't think a "blocking bet" on the river makes much sense. You're concerned about him having a set, and he's almost certainly going to raise just about any bet on the river if he does, so really this only acheives the purpose of a cheap showdown when he doesn't have a set, but it costs more than check-calling if he does.

I think call the turn, then check-call the river. This line causes you to win the maximum if he has a worse two pair by causing him to overvalue his hand, and lose the minimum against a set.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

call
hope for a miricle river
if nothing comes then bet how much you want to pay to showdown
if raised significanlty id fold, but even against the supposed set this is tough to lay down unless against a push or big river reraise.

I don't think a "blocking bet" on the river makes much sense. You're concerned about him having a set, and he's almost certainly going to raise just about any bet on the river if he does, so really this only acheives the purpose of a cheap showdown when he doesn't have a set, but it costs more than check-calling if he does.

I think call the turn, then check-call the river. This line causes you to win the maximum if he has a worse two pair by causing him to overvalue his hand, and lose the minimum against a set.

I don't see anything wrong with check-calling on the river, but if you say definitely don't place a blocking bet, then when would you ever use one?

A blocking bet is used so you can set the price you want to pay to see a showdown, and if they raise it, you can be pretty sure you're beaten and get out cheaper than if you check-call a pot sized bet or whatever they decide to throw at you. Put the pressure on them. Most of your 50NL opponents are going to have no idea what a blocking bet is and won't have the balls to raise it much as a bluff. Your still letting them over-value 2pair by calling your river bet, but your also letting yourself see a cheaper showdown. Sure, you might not make as much doing it this way on this particular hand than if you check-call a full potsized bet or push, but if you got too liberal about checkcalling large river bets, you'd be in some bankroll trouble eventually.

i would make two points
1. iron discipline. If he raises substantially i fold, no matter how much i want to showdown. If opp value bets it i guess i show top two pair, thats how id play here if i had the set.
2. If i dont block bet the river what option do i have? if opp bets anything but a large bet or pushes im basically limiting myself to a call. I block bet the river to encourage opp to 'show' me what he has by coming back at me. It may be more expensive but in this scenario im not too sure how good my top two pair is. I could be marginally ahead (as it turned out) or way behind to the set. I want to dictate the terms here so i gain enough info as to whether i call a reraise suspecting im ahead in a marginal situation or as to whether i dump a good hand. checking here tells me absolutly nothing about opps strength imo.