Where do I discuss HU? --> Sheetah eplains HU

I know this might be off topic, but which forum would be the best place to discuss strictly heads up play. After a long run of cold cards and bad beats, I've decided to change it up a bit. I got into some HU matches on pokerstars and have been doing well for my miniscule sampling. Any tips or pointers to the right forum/random web articles discussing this aspect of play(like what's a respectable ROI/win%) would be much appreciated. I've already found the SAGE system(http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15250) to be of use, and I can hold my own with my end game SnG expereinces under my belt...but anything for an edge, right ?

***Edited the Title

There have been a few posts on HU SNGs in this forum, feel free to post here. Most of us play 6+ SNGs but if you post your hands here we'll do our best!

You're in the right forum, Magyar.

Thanks guys. I'm more interested in getting a handle on the big picture before tweaking my game. I'd like to know what a good standard would be to set as my ITM/ROI goal. Since your ITM has a more direct relationship to ROI in HU than 6 and 10 man SnGs, the numbers play out differently for quality play(e.g. the 'good' ITM of 45% most SnGers play for gives you a -15% ROI in HU). Another aspect that's different is the rake which cuts into your ROI. Taking the rakes, entry fees and pize money at each pokerstars level, I've come up with the following:

ITM <-> ROI
52.5% = 0% (you need to play winning poker just to break even )
57.75% = 10%
60.38% = 15%
63% = 20%
65.63% = 25%
70% = 33.33%

My next question is what would be a good sample size? I've heard as low as 20 games, but I smell bs. I'd suppose the variance of ITM/OTM streaks could be the same as 6/10 man SnGs, but HU is more dependant on beating your opponent's style than beating the game, so perhaps an alternative sampling is needed...

What if we were to use something like sharkescope to break down each game/opponent into sub-categories along the lines of the following:

donk: <3% ROI
break even/average: 3-13%
solid: 14-19%
shark: >20%

These ROIs would assume mostly SnG play since no one here can point me towards purely HU players(If the numbers are off, they're only my guesses). It would be nice to know what percentage of each category a player's opponents tend to be at each level. If anyone would be interested in some research, shoot me a message . I can only do so much with 5 searches a day, hehe. I'd think that the ITM% you have against each category would give you a more well rounded indication to your level of play, and playing an equal(and by equal, I mean equal to the average of a given level) number of each category would give you a more truthful measure of ROI. What do you think of this sampling technique over, say, 200 games? Is this notion off the wall and a straight 200 games not taking into account your opponent equally acceptable?

In conclusion, what's a good ITM/ROI, what's a good-sized sample, and how would you go about getting that sample?

SAGE system is great, but there is not anything there about strategy for deep stacked HU SNG's. I just play almost no fold'em hold'em and try to outplay opponents. Is this the right approach? Because some of my opponents fold quite a lot and I just think it is because they think it is a full ring game, not heads up match and they don't know how to adjust.

In the first round, I play aggressively raising most of my average to solid hands PF and c-betting if the texture's good to see how much of a pushover I'm against. PFR Qx+, SCs, PPs, betting if it's checked to me, c-betting with top/2nd/3rd pair, oesd, flush draws, and even A/K high if the board's good. Too aggressive or not enough?

I'll slow it down if he catches on, but I'm happy to run him over if not. If he's saavy, I'll try smallball. If he's bullying me around, I'll pick a spot to allow him to double me up . If they're a total pushover, I'm happy to just run him over...watching out for any time he plays back at me and I'm looking at anything but nuts.

As the blinds increase and the Ms shrink, I'll go generally by SAGE. I've noticed that weaker players tend avoid calling all-ins unless they've got a much stronger hand than necessary to call with. Even then, I'm usually 40/60 at worst. what do y'all think of this strategy?

Isn't it better to play passively in first round of blinds to get an image and then play aggressively once the blinds increase? I am wondering about this because it depends on opponent. Some opponents become impatient that way and then they play back when they shouldn't. So you play aggressively at the beggining. Not sure it is good, but I usually take the opposite approach. Also, against aggressive guy I use to keep the pot small rather than to build it and I prefer to trap him and slowplay rather than playback at him.

I ask myself always - is it better to keep the pot small against a certain opponent and steal some small pots or will he call in small pots because he doesn't understand pot odds and fold in big ones? This is the most important question, I believe.

About SAGE system, I find myself folding some of hands that are profitable, something like J4 and that stuff. I am sure this is a leak.

If you want to play some games for small money and then analyze it (thought process and that stuff), send me a PM. I don't mean it because of money - just to learn the game - something like 5 bucks buy in. I found HU are interesting and I am break even at the moment so I want to improve to become a shark.

GL

I'd like to know what a good standard would be to set as my ITM/ROI goal ...

Good (and not necessarily GREAT) players usually win something in the neighborhood of 60% of games played. And accordingly ROI of 14% + is g00t.

If you win like ~57% (or lower) it's considered OK but 'little thin' meaning you should work on your game. ~67% is considered to be the top one can achieve and very few can maintain that zomgwtfpwnd shark like stats in the long run.

If you have 60% + over some decent sample size you are ready to jump in stakes as soon as you have the bankroll for it. Lower than 58% - work on your game and don't jump before you improve.

If you want to figure out how good you really are play at least 100 and preferably 200 matches. If you manage, say, 60% - that's it - there should be no significant change in your win rate. After 300+ you can be pretty sure of how you're doing.

Bankroll requirements: it's often said that HU has the craziest variance and it's true for cash games (btw don't play HU cash below NL200 - rake is BRUTAL). On the other side, and this will be a big surprise for many, HU SNGs have a VERY LOW variance. That being said 20 buy-ins is not gambling and should be enough at lower (passive) levels, 25 BI is just about OK and 30+ is considered conservative (at least for lower stakes).

Oh, this is all for standard slow ones. Turbos are swing-ier in nature = you need a bigger BR = your ROI is lower ... BUT these are way more quicker and many HU SNG specialists considered them more profitable given how Turbos affect THE MOST IMPORTANT POKER STAT EVER: $$$/hour. And Turbos are fish magnets, no matter the stakes, guaranteed.

The main drawback is that you can't really multitable more than 2 games and that is one too many. Even very good players (cardrunners) stick with 'only one with full concentration' rule. Your best bet is to fire one HU SNG and add one, two ... regular SNGs to nut peddle while having all your thoughts aimed at HU.
GOOD side is that vast majority of HU players S-U-C-K (some even at 500s) and that this is uncharted territory: there are no books, Sklansky charts, nothing! You learn by play, you win by feel and it's soooo interesting compared to 6max+.

PS. nice to see someone being interested in HU, I almost moved to 2+2 since almost no one here plays them.

You're a Godsend, my friend. Thank you for the compendium of stats and info. I vote for a sticky on Sheetah's post...very informative.

I've only dabbled in them one week after taking a break from my usual 9 man $5+.50 SnGs due to some horrendous beats. I've got 7 wins and 2 losses so far(positive variance I assume), but I agree that most people are terrible at adjusting for HU. I was pretty confident of my game, but I wanted to get some feedback as to where I fell on the spectrum. I like how I can get in 2-3 times in the time it takes to play one SnG(I'm an avid single tabler). I'll have to continue on and get back to you after I record a larger sample size .

I just play 6 max SNGs- you play HU often enough, run into tons of pushovers, and even in the rare instance you lose HU, you still cash.

Easiest poker on the planet is HU v. a nit. bet bet bet bet bet bet (he folds everything but paint... even when the blinds are 1/2 his stack) finally takes a stand with k9s when he has a blind and at that point doesnt matter what you call with.

Since playing HU is so opp dependent, wouldn't SharkScoping the opp right before the HU game starts give you a great edge? That way you can see his recent results to see the stakes he plays, if he's a winning player or not, and if he's tilting (which is incredibly useful information to have). Or is this information not as valuable as I might think?

Since HU is so swingy, how would you know if opp was tilting or just hitting bad cards? lol

Originally Posted by MagyarSHU

You're a Godsend, my friend. Thank you for the compendium of stats and info. I vote for a sticky on Sheetah's post...very informative.

Thanks
Glad it helped you grasp 'the big picture'.

I'm an avid single tabler

In that case HU is perfect for you. It's very hard to play even 2 simultaneous SNGs cause it's the nature of HU play - you need full concentration all the time. Any multitabler is sacrificing significant % of his edge and if you run into one so much the better for you.

I'll have to continue on and get back to you after I record a larger sample size .

Novice HUers are usually advised to take a 'challenge' and play 100 games. And 100 is just about right number - minimum to be considered a sample size and not too much to make you start thinking about something different. I've just recently finished my 'challenge' of 100 played 10s with 61% success.

Since playing HU is so opp dependent, wouldn't SharkScoping the opp right before the HU game starts give you a great edge?

If you are solid winner, the best way to use Shark Scope is to leave it be. Just make sure you're the first one to sit in. Obviously, good players will always check you and if they see you're winner they'll pass and wait for fish to show up. Fish will, of course, just jump in recklessly. So, let the regulars do the hard work while you wait for fish to come.

How much are you raising PF with hands you can be reasonable sure you're ahead on like Ax, Kx.

I do a:
SB: 3xBB
BB vs SB/D limp: 4xBB

Is this reasonable or too little? I think it may be on the small side. I raise a bit less from the D figure I can outmaneuver them on the flop, though this may sound irration now that I think about it...thoughts?

Pretty much the same.
From SB always 3x, occasionaly when the stacks are about ~15BB 2.5x will do the same job. From BB after SB limps 4x is standard. Only I must admit that I'm not 'trigger happy' OOP (learned it the hard way). In fact this is one aspect of my game IMHO where I really shine compared to my opponents: I'm very positional aware and it's very hard for them to put me in tough spot/first to act. Simply, avoid murky situations OOP and playing is easy. Have someone asked me to define my own style in few words I'd say: TAG/LAG in postion, weak tight OOP. Works like charm (so far).

Originally Posted by Sheetah

If you are solid winner, the best way to use Shark Scope is to leave it be. Just make sure you're the first one to sit in. Obviously, good players will always check you and if they see you're winner they'll pass and wait for fish to show up. Fish will, of course, just jump in recklessly. So, let the regulars do the hard work while you wait for fish to come.

Awesome, sounds like just sitting down all alone is +EV if you're a winrar.

Originally Posted by Xioustic

Originally Posted by Sheetah

If you are solid winner, the best way to use Shark Scope is to leave it be. Just make sure you're the first one to sit in. Obviously, good players will always check you and if they see you're winner they'll pass and wait for fish to show up. Fish will, of course, just jump in recklessly. So, let the regulars do the hard work while you wait for fish to come.

Awesome, sounds like just sitting down all alone is +EV if you're a winrar.

The way you put, yes it's a problem. In reality it'll go just as I described. And that's the advice I've heard from other good players, most notably maxv2