This is where my noobness shows through

Say I'm UTG with A6s. I know that it's incorrect to open limp... ever.

Does this mean I'm folding the hand? Or am I raising it?

I understand that calling a raise with it is a bad idea unless the opponent will pay me off in a big way...

I'd fold it instantly.

but I want to see the flop

Can't really answer that in a vacuum. If you're just starting out and playing 10NL, which it looks like you are I'd say tight is right for you. Easy fold.

I've got about 10k hands at 10nl.. so yeah.. I'm a noob. Does that mean as I get better I can open it up?

no, dont open it up til u understand why. just play tight. youll understand why as you move up stakes and gain more knowledge about the game.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

but I want to see the flop

why?

Whether or not you "want" to see a flop should only depend on whether or not the hand is profitable for you. Question your reasoning.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

I've got about 10k hands at 10nl.. so yeah.. I'm a noob. Does that mean as I get better I can open it up?

I wouldn't at microstakes, especially when you're just starting. It's just going to give you a lot of tougher decisions OOP where it'll be easy to make mistakes.

I remember I used to raise suited aces from UTG all the time about a year ago, then I read a thread here where someone was saying how they had opened up their range UTG. I think it was Fnord who said something like 'and is that working?' or words to that effect. I went straight back to my PT and saw that in fact I was losing with these hands in EP.

Everone and his dog call Ax offsuit at small stakes. You will have no idea where you are in the hand. the times when your Ax suited gets paid off by someone with j5 suited just won't make up for the times you miss and find yourself OOP. If you want to open up your range work out why, and do it in LP , or on the button. This also makes you appear tighter to multi- tabling HUD slaves.

ok. I agree, and I'm accepting your advice... But the debator in me wants to take this one step further.

The argument as to why I'd like to try to see the flop with this hand, and why I'd like to raise with this hand PF is for several reasons.

A) It's an obvious mistake, not a big mistake. (Sklansky's NLHE book...) I admidt that opening UTG is a mistake with A6s But it's not a huge mistake. For a small amount of money that I can get it in against a lot of weak/passive players bad, I can then get a lot of money in good. This comes from 2 tendencies

1) The tendency to fold if the flop doesn't fit their hand in the same way a puzzle piece fits into the bigger picture. (which is also a tendency not to float. I swear I have 200 ppl in my database. Only 5 have proven they will float me... and 2 of them post here!)

2) Their tendency to spew against huge draws that are favorites over their top pair top kicker.

B) The spots seem pretty clear. Top pair with my ace is read-dependent, and most likely a clear fold to any sort of counter aggression. But any flop with 2 of the same suit and I feel that FE + Draw = allin profitably.

C) I'm a bad debator, and I don't have a C point... this is because I'm tired, but I don't feel it effects my overall arguments.

Like I said. I agree, and I'm folding AXs early and only going to play for cheap, in position, until I figure out what I'm doing. Just want to argue for the sake of a well thought out debate.

edit-- wow and my argument is kicked around like a dog before it even hits the table.. thanks kagey. =D lol

So are you saying it might be worth a raise because they will likely fold to a flop bet if the flop misses their hands? If so why stop at Axs, just raise atc from any position and cbet the flop. I really think at these stakes (which is where I also play fwiw - about 16k hands) that loosening up with these weak hands OOP is only going to cause trouble.

Originally Posted by sil693

So are you saying it might be worth a raise because they will likely fold to a flop bet if the flop misses their hands? If so why stop at Axs, just raise atc from any position and cbet the flop. I really think at these stakes (which is where I also play fwiw - about 16k hands) that loosening up with these weak hands OOP is only going to cause trouble.

No, my argument was all those factors combined makes a solid argument to open with Axs UTG.

If I raise every hand I have UTG they will pick up on it. If I add one small class of hands, it might bring my total Vpip and PFR up 2-3% and would be unnoticed to all but the most astute of players.

[quote]1) The tendency to fold if the flop doesn't fit their hand in the same way a puzzle piece fits into the bigger picture. (which is also a tendency not to float.


This is even easier in position and noone can float you.

Their tendency to spew against huge draws that are favorites over their top pair top kicker.

The spots seem pretty clear. Top pair with my ace is read-dependent, and most likely a clear fold to any sort of counter aggression. But any flop with 2 of the same suit and I feel that FE + Draw = allin profitably.

Don't these two points contradict each-other?

nestled arguments have to be contradictive on a minor level, but cannot be mutually exclusive. If they weren't contradictive they couldn't be, by definiton, nestled. I assume as the arguer that there are situations where either will fit, and must in fact fit in order for a nestled argument to occur (Rikke/Sillars 400 level debate textbook... Logic and argumentation)

Most times they won't get into it when the flop doesn't fit.

Top Pair is a situation when when flops begin to fit.

If I bet and they have top pair, they come back at me. If I have 2 to the flush draw I shove and I think FE + odds = +EV If I don't have 4 to the flush.. I fold..

u r trying to talk real smart in order to make your point seem legit. i get it. i've given u this advice probably 4 times now, and i continue to do so because ive seen micro stakes players, particularly those at 10nl get stuck there because they analyze and over analyze every hand and every situation without realizing the actual goals. u dont have the experience to open A6s UTG. I don't think there are many people that woudl be able to open it UTG even at a very weak game consistently and show a profit. if u could do this, you would be playing much higher stakes games and already have the answers to these questions. for these reasons we advocate micro stakes players play tight. good cards in good position.

i have a bachelor's degree in philosophy w/ an emphasis on logic and i have no idea what point you're trying to make or what you're citing. the point im trying to make is it's silly.

your making the game too difficult as other people are saying. just nit it up at 10nl until you can play 25. I almost never open up suited aces from utg and if i do its becasue 2 people are sitting out and the table is all nits. Playing these hands gets me in trouble oop. I sometimes will incorrectly fire 2 barrels with a dominated top pair. A lot of times I am not getting any action when I hit. And when I do flop a draw+ an over I am getting it all in on a coin flip which is a high variance play. Its just not needed.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

but I want to see the flop

NO, you don't

I usually play the laggier end of TAG and I sometimes open A2s - A9s UTG when following conditions apply:

1) I'm playing 100NL or higher.
2) People acting after me are nits.
3) My image needs reworking to more loose.

I just checked a PT database consisting of 10k hands of 100NL and I opened with them twice of 39 times I was dealt them.

In a nutshell my advice to you is don't even think about opening them from UTG yet.

I am starting to think tight is right is very right. Opening up at higher limits is good for a lot of reasons: Opponents will have a harder time putting you on a range and you can out play people post flop if your hand does not hit.

Now in 10nl I have come to realize you do not need to protect your image, last night as an experiment I ran 8/5 at 6max, I did not notice a single time when someone attacked any different to my plays pf from when I run 18/15.
Also a lot of people will not fold middle pair or top pair weak kicker, so taking down a lot of small pots is not easy and you can run into bad situations.