Who's going to get de-pantsed?

This is a pretty comical blind war.

***** Hand History for Game 3040839435 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 15, 17:45:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 66223 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: msovacpa ( $74.05 )
Seat 3: limpmonk ( $41.50 )
Seat 5: afadas ( $19.15 )
Seat 6: FLFILMKR ( $52.85 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $50 )
FLFILMKR posts small blind [$0.25].
stressball10 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 9c 9h ]
msovacpa calls [$0.50].
limpmonk folds.
afadas did not respond in time.
afadas folds.
FLFILMKR calls [$0.25].
stressball10 raises [$1.50].
msovacpa folds.
FLFILMKR raises [$4.50].
stressball10 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, 7d, 2h ]
FLFILMKR bets [$5].
stressball10 raises [$15].
FLFILMKR calls [$10].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
FLFILMKR checks.
stressball10 bets [$20].
FLFILMKR calls [$20].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
txag2004 has joined the table.
FLFILMKR is all-In [$12.85]
stressball10 is all-In [$10]
FLFILMKR shows [ 8s, 8h ] a pair of eights.
stressball10 shows [ 9c, 9h ] a pair of nines.
FLFILMKR wins $2.85 from side pot #1 with a pair of eights.
stressball10 wins $98.50 from the main pot with a pair of nines.

What range do you put him on pre-flop? Why put in the first raise out of position?

Why did you bet the turn?

Pre-flop range, a small or medium pocket pair 55-TT. His limp-reraise line smelled to me and I've seen guys do this in 6 max a lot with pocket pairs because they assume the raiser is on overs and they can knock him off the hand. I raised pre-flop because I didn't want to play nines against two random hands that could combine for 2 or 3 overcards... don't like playing nines for set value only in five-man games. If I get action from just one of the two guys I'm happy, even if it's the guy with position on me.

I bet the turn for value. His flop action lets me know he probably doesn't have an ace and I'm working under the assumption that he probably doesn't have an overpair to my nines, based on what I think is his range of hands. (And yes, that's trusting a read much farther than I can throw it.) But the way he's played the hand so far tells me we're probably playing for stacks no matter what he's got, unless I fold or he backs off and decides to check it down. On that point, I think if I check the turn he will go all in on the river, which leaves me with a pretty tough decision - even on a read that I like. I'd rather keep control of the hand, if not the pot size. His desperation bluff on the river cracked me up.

i see only an ace and a ten out there and im holding nines. I trust daves read on no ace or he plays the flop differently. I think i'd have pushed the turn, value betting it is a little too much for me but its still a play i like.

Why not bump it again pre-flop and play a huge pot here if you think you have the best of him?

If you trust your read, why not push all-in to his reraise preflop?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why not bump it again pre-flop and play a huge pot here if you think you have the best of him?

That's an idea. Out of position I think I definitely would have, but with position on him I figured I could afford to take a flop. Do you think that's a worse way to look at it? I haven't given it much active thought (prior to now), but it seems like whenever somebody re-raises me before the flop and I have position on them, I almost always call rather than going back over the top of them, unless I have kings or aces. At least that's true in ring games - tourneys are quite different of course. I guess if I'm confident in my pre-flop reads I should be OK with doing this, but I *like* post-flop play... I feel like I am superior to 90% of my opponents in gathering information and exploiting my position after the flop. So in position, I call these raises a lot. Good or bad?

Originally Posted by thirteen

If you trust your read, why not push all-in to his reraise preflop?

Because he thinks he has his opponent crushed and it would only make him lay it down. Something like $10 flat would be a far better bet.

I concur that he probably has a limping hand and went crazy with it.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

That's an idea. Out of position I think I definitely would have, but with position on him I figured I could afford to take a flop. Do you think that's a worse way to look at it? I haven't given it much active thought (prior to now), but it seems like whenever somebody re-raises me before the flop and I have position on them, I almost always call rather than going back over the top of them, unless I have kings or aces. At least that's true in ring games - tourneys are quite different of course.

I agree, out of position a push is the way to go.

My thoughts here would be that if the read is correct your only dominated by one hand(the TT) so you're likely ahead and by pushing you:

A)Get him to make yet another mistake by committing more money when dominated.

B) Stand to take down a good pot with your 9's if he folds or a huge pot if he calls with a hand you beat.

C) Get him to fold a better hand like the TT.

Also, the pot is already large, so if he hits something funny like a straight draw he's got enough outs in a big pot to justify going to the felt.

I still think pushing sucks unless you think he's stupid enough to call with a worse hand. However, I take back thinking $10 is right because 22 can correctly call that bet. $15 flat.

Give him some rope to screw up the hand some more.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by thirteen

If you trust your read, why not push all-in to his reraise preflop?

Because he thinks he has his opponent crushed and it would only make him lay it down. Something like $10 flat would be a far better bet.

I concur that he probably has a limping hand and went crazy with it.

This is a good point.

But if villain is trying to get his money in while he thinks he's got the hero beat. I wouldn't be surprised to see his push get called here.

If villain puts you on an unpaired hand and is trying to force you to fold, then he may even reraise all in if you make it $1o to go, so you make a good point Fnord.

One thing I forgot to mention about the turn bet, that ran through my mind at the time I made it:

I'm 75% confident in my pre-flop read of a modest pair, but the 25% uncertainty mostly deals with weak overcards: KQ, Ax. It's possible he limped one of these hands and then tried to punish me for what he perceives as stealing (bear in mind, this is my first active hand at this table, so of course he's going to assume my raise is bogus).

If he does have something like KQ it's the same situation for me as a lower pocket pair, except he has far more outs - so I want to bet the turn to make him pay for his draw. If he has Ax, he actually has a better hand than me, but his flop line still makes sense because he suspects I have a better ace and he's in trouble. So backing it up with a healthy turn bet is a good idea because there's no other way I'm going to win this pot. For reference, see the hand Danneman played in the WSOP last week. He came in for a raise with queens, and was called by KJ. On a king high flop he bet and his opponent called OOP. On the turn an ace came down; he bet again and the opponent folded. Now it's probable that the ace helped form his opponent's opinion of why he needed to fold this hand, but even without the ace, another bet from Danneman on the turn represents a strong hand: probably aces or AK, maybe KQ. This is the only way at this point to make your opponent lay down a better hand than yours that they are still uncertain about.

Now in this hand, I have no fold equity on my opponent if I check behind on the turn, no matter what he has. I am 75+ % sure I am ahead with the nines unimproved, but the 25% of the time I am wrong, I don't mind giving myself another way to win the hand. And if I'm right and he has something like eights or sevens, this is just a value bet that I want him to call. It serves a nice dual purpose.