A wierd hand ~ QQ

3/6 QQ in CO. EP small stack raises to 20 with about 180 behind. He's an aggro player, but it doesn't matter. This is going to be a preflop hand. Folds to me, I make it 180 to play. Button thinks for a while and flat calls. Button is pretty passive preflop and aggro postflop, he's wierd. Shortstack calls and the flop comes J T 5 I have the Q

EDIT - Assume I and Button have equal 600 stacks.

Your play?

-'rilla

I'd open for about $350, pretty sure you've got the best hand here, if button calls, he is almost certainly on the heart draw (Aggro post flop player + flat call = not a made hand just yet).

If he's got JJ, you'd be both unlucky and stackless. If he's got AJ, you're in for a treat. Both of those hands should see him raising.

It's a close decision for sure, I'm still pondering how to play it.

Originally Posted by dwarfman

I'd open for about $350, pretty sure you've got the best hand here, if button calls, he is almost certainly on the heart draw (Aggro post flop player + flat call = not a made hand just yet).

If he's got JJ, you'd be both unlucky and stackless. If he's got AJ, you're in for a treat. Both of those hands should see him raising.

It's a close decision for sure, I'm still pondering how to play it.

What range of hands are you putting him on with the preflop call?

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by dwarfman

I'd open for about $350, pretty sure you've got the best hand here, if button calls, he is almost certainly on the heart draw (Aggro post flop player + flat call = not a made hand just yet).

If he's got JJ, you'd be both unlucky and stackless. If he's got AJ, you're in for a treat. Both of those hands should see him raising.

It's a close decision for sure, I'm still pondering how to play it.

What range of hands are you putting him on with the preflop call?

-'rilla

(AKs?) AQs-ATs

AKo-ATo

QQ-TT (99?)

I think you're putting him on a dangerously loose set of hands. I'm tight, decently aggro preflop and I'm not putting the short stack AI without a hand that plays well.

Knowing that and that he doesn't have any implied odds against me when he's shoving in half his stack. You've got to put him on AA-JJ (TT?) AKs, AKo.

I'd say more frequency to JJ and AKs than AA-QQ.

I dont know how loose he can play against me here, but I'm pretty sure he's not playing AQ and lower.

-'rilla

Is your table image really aggressive enough to make these big re-raises with QQ and KA to get called by worse hands more often than better ones? Probably not, but perhaps a better question would be if its worth making these plays when counting in the times you take it down pre flop and for the value setting up your table image?

Personally I don't like nearly pot commiting myself preflop with these hands. It gives you little room to manouver on later streets. Then again I don't play nearly as high as you..

I don't see many hands that you are beating here which would call a sizeable flop bet, AK of hearts is probably the only one and even that unlikely holding is a favourite here.

Tough situation, maybe bet 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot and fold to a reraise?

Its hard to say when I don't know how the table and this opponent was playing.

According to the likely range of hands you've given him, you're not ahead of much. I dont even see AKo calling a $180 PF raise even with pot odds, because you've represented a hand that has AK dominated.

Do you ever reraise this big preflop? If not, why would you re-raise so much now? I know its not fun to respect shortstacks or ever let them in the pot but I still don't see the shortstack calling with many hands worse than QQ besides JJ or possibly TT - unless he's an idiot. A big but smaller than 180 preflop raise would suck in worse hands. Make it 50 to go and then pot him in on the flop. I know you didn't ask about the preflop action so I assume you have that part figured out, but I would be interested to know your thinking.

You couldn't have ever expected the button to cold call but that big raise now has you in a very difficult situation with a big pot out of position. If you bet out about $200 on the flop and he's really aggro, you're going to be put allin and be just about tied to the pot. If you check, you still have no idea what you're up against but you can hope for the outside chance of a bluff or overplayed hand.

There's so much shit to think about that in the heat of the moment I would just pot it or push and hope for the best. I guess that's why I still play 100NL though. I can't wait to see some experienced replies to this one.

That flat call really bothers me, but i agree w/ your range of hands here rilla. I think the raise of 180 was fine because he was just trying to isolate the short stack with a very strong hand, and did not expect a call from the few remaining players.
So he has AA, KK, JJ, 36 times, AK, AQ, QQ 44 times. I have no idea what to do, the pot is so massive that you really need to push your entire stack in, but you are only getting called by better hands here or possibly by draws.

Its always so much more simple against fish,

What's the button's VP$IP looking like?

I raised preflop to isolate the shortstack and take a showdown with QQ. I didn't like buttons cold call at all, but this flop was pretty good for me becuase it meant I was losing to almost every hand I figured he would call with.

I check, Villian checks. Turn is 5

Do you bet now?

-'rilla

hmm I misread and didn't notice that the shortstack also called. So I thought the pot was smaller than it actually was.

With that in mind I think checking was the correct flop play.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

hmm I misread and didn't notice that the shortstack also called. So I thought the pot was smaller than it actually was.

With that in mind I think checking was the correct flop play.

And the turn?

-'rilla

You can probably assume that He wouldn't slowplay AA/KK/QQ, slowplaying JJ is still a possibility. I'd probably push here cause it is much more likely that you have him beat. You will only get called by hands that beat you, or tie with you here, but any reasonable bet commits you to the pot.

The only problem i see is the short stack, because there is a chance (probably small) that he has you beat. Heads up with the button would make the push much easier, but the shorstack complicates things here.

I am probably checking again. If you have him beat he will likely check this hand down. If he has you beat and you bet he will likely push and he wont call very much with AK, then again he could be getting a free card for his AK and 9 outs. Alternatively you could make a small probing bet, if he only calls it you can put him on AK if he answers by pushing you can fold. Unlike Bmxicle I think don't think its that unlikely that the small stack has you beat here. Perhaps as high as 40%. So its really not worth trying to build up a sidepot here IMO.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I am probably checking again. If you have him beat he will likely check this hand down. If he has you beat and you bet he will likely push and he wont call very much with AK, then again he would be getting a free card for his AK and 9 outs. Alternatively you could make a small probing bet, if he only calls it you can put him on AK if he answers by pushing you can fold. Unlike Bmxicle I think don't think its that unlikely that the small stack has you beat here. Perhaps as high as 40%. So its really not worth trying to build up a sidepot here IMO.

I check figuring the pot's going into check down mode. Op bets 200. I fold. Shortstack had AK, OP had QQ. River is meaningless and OP drags the pot.

-'rilla

i'm confused by the $180 preflop. why 30x's BB, especially when its such a small pot? if you take it down preflop what have u won? QQ i usually raise 3 or 4x's BB, or flat call a moderate preflop raise, MAYBE reraise a small raise. if an A or K hits on flop and i make a "feeler" bet and get called or reraised i ck down or fold.

in this case i make a decent size bet at flop...which is hard to do with a $180 preflop bet. i'm not gonna let them chase the flush or str8 for free and i want to see where i'm at in the hand, feeler bet. hard to say what i do if reraised because i'm not at table and havent seen their actuall play. depending on turn i may ck or bet again, same with river.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I am probably checking again. If you have him beat he will likely check this hand down. If he has you beat and you bet he will likely push and he wont call very much with AK, then again he would be getting a free card for his AK and 9 outs. Alternatively you could make a small probing bet, if he only calls it you can put him on AK if he answers by pushing you can fold. Unlike Bmxicle I think don't think its that unlikely that the small stack has you beat here. Perhaps as high as 40%. So its really not worth trying to build up a sidepot here IMO.

I check figuring the pot's going into check down mode. Op bets 200. I fold. Shortstack had AK, OP had QQ. River is meaningless and OP drags the pot.

-'rilla

ouch

I guess the probing bet approach or push would have worked out better here then...

Hard to put him on QQ, a very unlikely holding indeed.

Originally Posted by kizzit

i'm confused by the $180 preflop. why 30x's BB, especially when its such a small pot? if you take it down preflop what have u won? QQ i usually raise 3 or 4x's BB, or flat call a moderate preflop raise, MAYBE reraise a small raise. if an A or K hits on flop and i make a "feeler" bet and get called or reraised i ck down or fold.

in this case i make a decent size bet at flop...which is hard to do with a $180 preflop bet. i'm not gonna let them chase the flush or str8 for free and i want to see where i'm at in the hand, feeler bet. hard to say what i do if reraised because i'm not at table and havent seen their actuall play. depending on turn i may ck or bet again, same with river.

Like I've said before, a short stack made a standard raise and I figured I could get a weaker shortstack hand to call me. Especially with the range of hands that he's raising with and my fondness for preflop aggression (possibly missplaced fondness), QQ is ahead of the field. I figured it'd be a quick and easy pot until button stuck his nose in things.

-'rilla

You played it fine after the flop, Rilla. Again I'm surprised by some of the comments, I'd assume you're beat on that flop immediately, as I'm putting him on AA, KK, JJ, TT, or AK (with TT and AK being the least likely two).

Everything beats you, after he bets that turn (since you know he doesn't have AK then with the dry pot). You never can put someone on the same pocket pair you had, and you lost to everything else.

i am by no means an "expert" but i think you messed up with the $180 bet preflop. even if you thght all would fold what do you win? risk $180 for a $30 pot, not me. i feel like flat calling or a much smaller reraise was the play preflop. had you reraised lets say $60 then you coulda put out a feeler bet of $40-$100 on the flop. if its called or reraised you then have a real good idea where you actually are in the hand and have'nt necessarily put as much money in the pot. from my experience most of the time when i reraise preflop and make a respectable bet on flop the other players usually fold. i've had QQ and an Ace come on flop but i still bet and a majority of the time i take the pot down. if i get reraised i fold, i get called i usually check the turn or play by ear. just my thought, but i prefer to play aggresive post flop where i believe you said you prefer preflop.

Originally Posted by kizzit

i am by no means an "expert" but i think you messed up with the $180 bet preflop. even if you thght all would fold what do you win? risk $180 for a $30 pot, not me. i feel like flat calling or a much smaller reraise was the play preflop. had you reraised lets say $60 then you coulda put out a feeler bet of $40-$100 on the flop. if its called or reraised you then have a real good idea where you actually are in the hand and have'nt necessarily put as much money in the pot. from my experience most of the time when i reraise preflop and make a respectable bet on flop the other players usually fold. i've had QQ and an Ace come on flop but i still bet and a majority of the time i take the pot down. if i get reraised i fold, i get called i usually check the turn or play by ear. just my thought, but i prefer to play aggresive post flop where i believe you said you prefer preflop.

I made the preflop raise becuase a shortstack had made an early raise. The assumption was that the shortstack would call and I'd have a preflop hand with QQ against shortstacks wide range of raising hands.

Also, small preflop reraises suck. You're building a pot for your ops to fight over and they will not give you credit for aces as easily. And if I only made it 60, It can stilll be called by a lot of hands.

-'rilla

This is just an unfortunate hand where he beat you because he had position. I've thought about it a lot, and I really don't see how you can make that call.