Again and again

[sejje]

I guess I'm one of those morons who can't fold aces, and you should call them with any two.

***** Hand History for Game 2105577627 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Wednesday, May 25, 20:58:22 EDT 2005
Table Table 37197 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: gklove2400 ( $96.5 )
Seat 2: SpongeChuck ( $226.38 )
Seat 6: rwmatts ( $212.24 )
Seat 7: ZigZagCat ( $133.18 )
Seat 10: Dorsology ( $142.42 )
Seat 4: sejje ( $112.3 )
Seat 9: Ldorey ( $92.88 )
Seat 8: cAAnabis ( $145.45 )
Seat 5: run_tmc_91 ( $25 )
Seat 3: WSRAY ( $93.85 )
ZigZagCat posts small blind [$0.5].
cAAnabis posts big blind [$1].
run_tmc_91 posts big blind + dead [$1.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sejje [ Ah Ac ]
>You have options at Table 36646 Table!.
Ldorey folds.
gklove2400 folds.
SpongeChuck calls [$1].
WSRAY calls [$1].
sejje raises [$5].
>You have options at Table 36646 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37146 Table!.
>You have options at Table 36646 Table!.
run_tmc_91 folds.
rwmatts folds.
ZigZagCat folds.
cAAnabis folds.
SpongeChuck calls [$4].
WSRAY calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 4s, 7d ]
>You have options at Table 37361 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37361 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37361 Table!.
SpongeChuck bets [$5].
WSRAY folds.
sejje raises [$17].
SpongeChuck raises [$24].
sejje is all-In [$90.3]
SpongeChuck calls [$78.3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
SpongeChuck shows [ 9c, 4c ] a full house, Fours full of sevens.
sejje shows [ Ah, Ac ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
SpongeChuck wins $229.6 from the main pot with a full house, Fours full of sevens.

[ender555]

getting re-raised on that flop i would have to lay it down here instead of going all in. Yes it sucks that this guy calls raises with rags, but you have to lay this down. i woulda figured a flopped full house and he was just betting into you because he knew you had ze goods. too bad you didn't river an ace

[sejje]

I just feel like I can't play any hands.

I'm expected to make big laydowns every time I get AA or KK, my pairs rarely set, and have been getting outdrawn regardless.

There's not much else you can play in NL that's +EV. Suited connectors have to be just right...

I know you don't have to play a lot of hands, just win the ones you play, yadda yadda. Just I'm only playing the best, and the best is losing.

Just more whining to throw in about my...I can't remember how long now...losing streak.

[DimitriT]

I just feel like I can't play any hands.

I'm expected to make big laydowns every time I get AA or KK, my pairs rarely set, and have been getting outdrawn regardless.

This is the hardest thing to do: lay down that big pair. I have the same
problem. You have to remember that even though your hand will win
it is still just a big pair which can get beat by wired pairs and higher. This is were getting a good read and being disciplined is so important. Was you opponent consistently slow playing his hands? Was he loose with a tendency to AI on top pair, or did he build the pot incrementally. Also
consider how well you represent your hand and how your opponent
typically responds to these signals: when you raise 3x BB with your big pair (which you should) and get a call from your opponent, expect a pocket pair or an A with a face card. If you see him follow through with calls postflop on a weak board, perhaps he's connected with a set or an OESD. If I am way in the lead on a typical S&G I will often call obvious strong hands with lower suited connectors and try to trap opponents into a straight, flush or any other non-obvious hand.

My biggest problem when I've isolated with AA (or KK) and going in for the kill is that I rush and don't try as hard to analyze my opponents actions. Perhaps its the feeling of strength that the hand gives you which
make me overconfident.

[a500lbgorilla]

Hehehe, I've just mastered this ability.

When he rererereraises (or whatever it was) you on that flop, you've gotta decide if he's capable of doing that with the 7 or a hand like TT, JJ, QQ. Can you fit TT, JJ, QQ into his preflop action?

I'd reraise to about 50. There's enough behind to make the fold right, you're telling him you will go AI and you'll have enough information to know where you are in the hand.

-'rilla

[Element187]

im thinking you got outplayed.. seems like he is learning a new style of play, but he's still a newb at it... playing this way out of position has some sick variance.


can you blame him ?? you made it 5$ to go, he already had 1$ invested, your raise smells like AA or KK or something similar. if your the type who gets married to his AA his implied odds are greater then 20 to 1 if he hits his hand and takes your stack.

[dalecooper]

im thinking you got outplayed.. seems like he is learning a new style of play, but he's still a newb at it...

Limping 49 suited from early position and then calling a fat raise with it is not a "new style of play." It's Dumbass Poker 101. I play morons all the time who think any two suited cards are licenses to print money. Mostly you find them in loose home games, but those guys hit the internet too. The one time in fifty that they flop two pair or a flush or trips, they may take a lot of money off of people with aces, but the rest of the time they're just pissing money away.

[dalecooper]

can you blame him ?? you made it 5$ to go, he already had 1$ invested, your raise smells like AA or KK or something similar. if your the type who gets married to his AA his implied odds are greater then 20 to 1 if he hits his hand and takes your stack.

Hits his hand? Do you know what the odds are of hitting anything worth a crap with 94 suited? I'll give you a hint, it's worse than 20 to 1 - unless you like pushing all in with flush draws.

This is like the new religion around here - call raises with anything and try to "take somebody's stack." It's not a completely useless idea... I play small pairs and suited connectors all day long if the cost is reasonable. But playing for big raises with utter garbage hands is silly. If you're calling 3 or 4xBB raises with cards worse than suited gappers (T8, J9, etc) your chance of hitting anything worth betting with is way too low to be profitable. 2% to hit two pair, 1% to flop trips, 1% to flop a flush... no straight possibilities, so that's about it. You've got <5% likelihood to flop a hand worth going all in with. If you're lucky you'll hit that 11% chance of flopping a flush draw, which you will miss 2 out of 3 times, or have to fold because Mr. AA is going to bet you out of the pot.

You also have to factor in the fact that even if you hit that sweet spot - that 4% monster on the flop, or your flush draw on a later street - sometimes the pre-flop raiser isn't going to hand you his whole stack. That reduces your expectation by playing this way. If even one time out of 5 the raiser folds to your aggressive raises, you're losing a substantial chunk of your alleged profit over the long run. And if you're playing against me, I would fold to an all in more than 1 time in 5.

[Element187]

im thinking you got outplayed.. seems like he is learning a new style of play, but he's still a newb at it...

Limping 49 suited from early position and then calling a fat raise with it is not a "new style of play." It's Dumbass Poker 101. I play morons all the time who think any two suited cards are licenses to print money. Mostly you find them in loose home games, but those guys hit the internet too. The one time in fifty that they flop two pair or a flush or trips, they may take a lot of money off of people with aces, but the rest of the time they're just pissing money away.

i said he's a newb for playing it in EP .. in late positon, i will play 49s against someone raising with AA in EP.. AA is not a 20 to 1 favorite against any two random cards. only 5x BB raise with deep stacks, any two cards is good.

[dalecooper]

It's a 4 to 1 favorite even if you get to see all 5 cards, which you usually won't. If you could get Mr. AA to check quietly and let you see the turn and river for free, this might be a workable theory.

[Element187]

It's a 4 to 1 favorite even if you get to see all 5 cards, which you usually won't. If you could get Mr. AA to check quietly and let you see the turn and river for free, this might be a workable theory.

you only need to catch 2 pair or better to crack aces.. AA is not license to print money. you can keep overvaluing them like their a guaranteed winner and stay married to it.. and i'll keep calling with junk in late position and destacking your type.

[dalecooper]

you only need to catch 2 pair or better to crack aces.. AA is not license to print money. you can keep overvaluing them like their a guaranteed winner and stay married to it.. and i'll keep calling with junk in late position and destacking your type.

My "type"? Put your dick back in your pants, boy, we're not on Party here, playing heads up for all the bananas. This is supposed to be poker discussion - not My Penis Vs. Yours Deathmatch.

Like I just got done saying, your chances of flopping "two pair or better" with two random garbage cards is about 4%... less than that, if they're not suited. So by all means, keep calling raises from big pairs with little shit... if you don't like your money. I assume you also think it's a good idea if you flop 1 small pair, or some half-ass gutshot draw, to call big bets from the aces so you can "take their stack" when you hit some long shot on 'em. Right? 50 years of hold 'em theory right out the window... somebody found the magic recipe for making money - calling any raise with any hand and hoping to get lucky.

[dalecooper]

By the way, this is the kind of thing my "type" is capable of:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...844&highlight=

Just to show you that I'm not all "raise with aces, fold to raises, go cryin' to momma" when I play cards.

[FishMagician]

I have to say that calling a 5bb raise with 94s is ridiculous. Your theory on these odds assumes that 100% of the time you make your two pair or better you take 100% of their stack.

[Element187]

I have to say that calling a 5bb raise with 94s is ridiculous. Your theory on these odds assumes that 100% of the time you make your two pair or better you take 100% of their stack.

he already has 1$ invested, with another 4 to call, i dont see the problem calling.

the villian hit his hand and played how i would have against two aces.


my theory is , you only have to hit a small fraction of the time to destack someone. aces will never fold their hand on that flop.

[dalecooper]

OK.

[Element187]

AA wins 84% of the time in a full 10 person ring game ... thats about a 6 to 1 advantage over any 2 random cards... any two cards are not that big of a dog to 20 to 1 on your money.

[Element187]

By the way, this is the kind of thing my "type" is capable of:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...844&highlight=

Just to show you that I'm not all "raise with aces, fold to raises, go cryin' to momma" when I play cards.

you limped in .. you didnt call a raise preflop, your opponent was an idiot.

[dalecooper]

you limped in .. you didnt call a raise preflop, your opponent was an idiot.

Re-read the post. I limped in and then called a raise. And my opponent was an idiot - so what? Idiots are easiest to outplay and take chips from. Which is all beside the point. My point was only that I don't always play textbook poker. I've got hand histories all over these forums that demonstrate a willingness to play unpredictably and think outside the box. What I'm not willing to do though is call big fat raises with 94.

[Chicago_Kid]

you limped in .. you didnt call a raise preflop, your opponent was an idiot.

Re-read the post. I limped in and then called a raise. And my opponent was an idiot - so what? Idiots are easiest to outplay and take chips from. Which is all beside the point. My point was only that I don't always play textbook poker. I've got hand histories all over these forums that demonstrate a willingness to play unpredictably and think outside the box. What I'm not willing to do though is call big fat raises with 94.

Agreed. You can't be profitable calling raises with this crap, this isn't unpredictability in my book, it's sheer stupidity. Unpredictability is calling these raises with s00ted connectors or 1-gappers every so often with a good read, several callers, or after several beers. HU 94s might as well be 27s...

This guy probably rides tremendous variance all for the thrill of hitting the AI once in a blue moon. And there's no way he makes money doing it, if he does so as much as Sej observes.