What's your move here?

[DimitriT]

Opp. plays ABC but seems to have a random elements to his PF bets. He raised AT 5x with one limper ahead just a couple of hands previously. He was in quite a few hands and would often raise. I wan't sure what to make of this limp. Small pockets? Weak A?

PokerStars Game #2295014431: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/08 -
21:45:01 (ET)
Table 'Musca II' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ManINaSuit ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 2: slapstix24 ($14.05 in chips)
Seat 3: DimitriT ($29 in chips)
Seat 4: KoKeR ($32.10 in chips)
Seat 5: EZ-on-J ($15.95 in chips)
Seat 6: marcsavard27 ($31.90 in chips)
Seat 7: DelGatoNegro ($18.40 in chips)
Seat 8: frlonghorn ($28.60 in chips)
Seat 9: slickster998 ($32.25 in chips)
frlonghorn: posts small blind $0.10
slickster998: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DimitriT [Jd Kd]
ManINaSuit: folds
slapstix24: calls $0.25
DimitriT: calls $0.25
KoKeR: folds
EZ-on-J: folds
marcsavard27: folds
DelGatoNegro: folds
frlonghorn: folds
slickster998: checks
*** FLOP *** [6d Ts Jc]
slickster998: checks
slapstix24: bets $0.75
DimitriT: raises $1.25 to $2
slickster998: folds
slapstix24: raises $3 to $5
DimitriT: ???

[arkana]

Easy Fold.

I don't know why you stress the preflop limp, his raise on the flop is what you should base your decision on. What hands are you beating that will raise you on this flop? Not a lot.

KJ is a marginal hand that can get you in a lot of trouble, playing it in fairly early position at a full ring game is not something i would recommend.

[DimitriT]

I agree with you on KJs. It's a "trouble hand". Here's why I played it: 70% of hands were unraised with one or two limpers. My opp. would generally raise his hands between 3x and 5x. So I felt his hand should be on the weaker end. I was also able to play position on him several times with no cards. The reason I focused on the limp is because it was unusual. Especially when I saw him play so many hands.

Ofcourse, as you point out, the decision to me is primarily based on his flop bets.

So what range of hands could you put him on at this point? I was primarily worrying about a set of 6's and JT.

[arkana]

66, TT, JT, AJ.

If you are going to play marginal hands you should be able to get away from them if its clear that you are beat. His reraise tells me you are beat. Do you have information that says otherwise?

Also with so much money going in to the pot on the flop you know that pot is going to grow out of control really quickly. Do you want to put so much money in with top pair reasonable kicker?

[journey075]

fold.

[Fnord]

I just call the flop bet and re-evaluate on the turn. On a JTx board there are a lot of draws he could have. Also, I do not want to play a big pot here with a pre-flop limp and deep money.

[journey075]

I just call the flop bet and re-evaluate on the turn. On a JTx board there are a lot of draws he could have. Also, I do not want to play a big pot here with a pre-flop limp and deep money.

i dont like flat calling, he has to find out where he stands.

[DimitriT]

After a thinking about it for some time I decided I would call:

DimitriT: calls $3
*** TURN *** [6d Ts Jc] [3c]
slapstix24: bets $8.80 and is all-in
DimitriT: folds
slapstix24 collected $10.35 from pot
slapstix24: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.85 | Rake $0.50
Board [6d Ts Jc 3c]
Seat 1: ManINaSuit folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: slapstix24 collected ($10.35)
Seat 3: DimitriT folded on the Turn

[dalecooper]

I just call the flop bet and re-evaluate on the turn. On a JTx board there are a lot of draws he could have. Also, I do not want to play a big pot here with a pre-flop limp and deep money.

i dont like flat calling, he has to find out where he stands.

Flat calling in position is underrated as an information-gaining tool. #1, you automatically gain one really huge piece of information: the value of the next card to your hand. #2, the opponent here is first to act on the turn and has to follow his re-raise with a bet of some sort, or perhaps a check. That's more information for you, easily as much as you might gain from raising again on the flop. On the off chance he does check, you also gain something by being able to check behind and get another free card in case you're behind.

[Fnord]

i dont like flat calling, he has to find out where he stands.

Explain this line of thought? Maybe I'm too jaded by playing limit games filled with idiots mixed with aggro-nut-bags, wanna-be TAggs, legit TAggs, rocks and god-knows-what-else. Seeing bizare hands played in strange ways and all kinds of crap at showdown all day long. Against most opponents I gave up on thinking a single raise would give me so much information that I would want to play for stacks here. Selective aggression and ruthless value betting mixed in with a healthy dose of calling down and screwing draws on the turn is what has brought home the money.

[Fnord]

On the off chance he does check, you also gain something by being able to check behind and get another free card in case you're behind.

I think he's got an easy 1/2 pot bet if checked to on the turn. If he gets check/raised then he's got some great information to work with.

[journey075]

i dont like flat calling, he has to find out where he stands.

Explain this line of thought? Maybe I'm too jaded by playing limit games filled with idiots mixed with aggro-nut-bags, wanna-be TAggs, legit TAggs, rocks and god-knows-what-else. Seeing bizare hands played in strange ways and all kinds of crap at showdown all day long. Against most opponents I gave up on thinking a single raise would give me so much information that I would want to play for stacks here. Selective aggression and ruthless value betting mixed in with a healthy dose of calling down and screwing draws on the turn is what has brought home the money.

you're the limit master, but in very marginal positions (like tpgk) in nl, calling to improve is never an option especially in a limped pot. with strong flop hands you want to put pressure on drawing hands and get away cheap if your hand isnt good. by raising, the hero asks the question of whether or not his hand is good. to be reraised back is an almost certain indication that he can let his hand go.


if there was a raise preflop, id like calling behind as there is a chance he has unimproved overs, but this is a very risky play into a limped pot.

assuming he did just call the flop bet, whats your plan for the turn? river? the longer he takes to raise for information the more expensive the information will become. the flop is the cheapest place and hes gotta ask the question...he cant become a calling station in a limped pot.

thats my reasoning anyway, id love to hear any elaboration on your idea.

[Fnord]

you're the limit master, but in very marginal positions (like tpgk) in nl, calling to improve is never an option especially in a limped pot.

I'm not sure we need to improve here. How do you mange pot size when playing luke-warm strong hands with deep money? That IS an important NL concept...

My plan here is to play the turn. If he bets strong and a bad card hits, fold. If you improve re-consider playing for stacks. If he checks bet and consider a river line if called. If he bets weak raise, planning to fold to a re-raise and check behind on the river unimproved.

Then again, in crazy online games I really like showing down hands...

[journey075]

you're the limit master, but in very marginal positions (like tpgk) in nl, calling to improve is never an option especially in a limped pot.

I'm not sure we need to improve here. How do you mange pot size when playing luke-warm strong hands with deep money? That IS an important NL concept...

My plan here is to play the turn. If he bets strong and a bad card hits, fold. If you improve re-consider playing for stacks. If he checks bet and consider a river line if called. If he bets weak raise, planning to fold to a re-raise and check behind on the river unimproved.

Then again, in crazy online games I really like showing down hands...

if you feel theres no reason to improve, why see another card? i think raising the flop gives you the same information as seeing a turn and going from there. plus i think the decision becomes easier (and more importantly, cheaper).

[Fnord]

if you feel theres no reason to improve, why see another card? i think raising the flop gives you the same information as seeing a turn and going from there. plus i think the decision becomes easier.

o Your hand isn't strong enough given the deep money to screw just about any draw on the flop. You can't bet the ranch here without a strong read.

o A flop call encourages a bluff or draw to fire again on any turn card.

o Any weaker hand will be hard pressed to re-raise a turn raise as you are representing a bit of slow play.

o You give a stronger hand less oportunity to build a big pot.

[Fnord]

Opp. plays ABC but seems to have a random elements to his PF bets. He raised AT 5x with one limper ahead just a couple of hands previously. He was in quite a few hands and would often raise. I wan't sure what to make of this limp. Small pockets? Weak A?

slapstix24: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)

Great time to add a note on this player "weak when strong, tricky." Not the guy you want to be spewing chips at. Let him under-bet and tip off his big hands, then bluff off chips with his weak hands. Further encourage him by saying "you're a hard one to read", "nice play", "didn't see that comming", etc. Consider that he's making big fundamental theorm of poker "mistakes" in an effort to induce his opponents into making even bigger mistakes.

[dalecooper]

I think he's got an easy 1/2 pot bet if checked to on the turn. If he gets check/raised then he's got some great information to work with.

I can go with that. I agree with your basic theory that this is a hand you might like to showdown, but not for your stack. If you can't control the pot early it becomes a playing-for-stacks situation real quick.

Note that slapstix has $5 in the pot as of his flop re-raise. If you re-raise him again right there, he's going to have to put at least half his chips in to make that call, the pot will be up to $15 or more, and he'll only have $7 or less left... i.e. any move he makes after that point gives you at the very worst 3:1 pot odds. That's creeping dangerously close to "you can't fold" territory. Despite all the information you get from re-raising and having him come over the top of you (or call, then push on the turn), that's still going to be a very difficult laydown because of the pot size. I think you're better off keeping the pot size down and getting your information other ways. Like here - the flat call forced a bet from him on the turn, and it was an easy fold. Less money invested, same information gained. If the turn was a king or jack then it's an easy call.

[a500lbgorilla]

g00t thread.

-'rilla

[dodgerfan29]

wow i learned a grip just from reading this whole post..and i agree with calling behind on the flop and seeing what ur opponent does on the turn..though i dont really play JK from an early position..

[journey075]

i still dont like the idea of seeing another card because your opp is continuing on almost any card with his show of strength on the flop. you give up any turn where an A/Q falls (17%), youre not sure if improving is good enough to win the hand and youre simply trying to catch a bluff in a limped pot.

raise the flop and find out the easiest and cheapest way possible.

while i like fnord's way of thinking, i think it proposes some problems. he's trying to get a cheap showdown with a fairly mediocre hand in a limped pot that he doesnt have control of. you say a flop call encourages a draw/bluff to fire again. well, which cards are you willing to calldown or raise on the turn (which i point out once again will become more expensive). if you plan on raising the turn regardless i like the move, but youre playing with fire without a read - its an expensive move and at that point you might be playing for stacks against a maniac.

then again ive never been a fan of passive play, so while i give a stronger hand more of an op to build a pot, i also kill any implied odds he thought he had on me on the flop. end it while youre ahead/behind, you have to know where you stand. a call leaves too many questions unanswered.

basically, i dont like the call to try and catch a bluff or simply give up on the turn. you'd need a good read to be able to pull that off enough times to make it worthwhile.

rilla, your thoughts?

[Fnord]

rilla, your thoughts?