Need help with aces.. 200 NL

[spino1i]

200 NL. Villian is TAG not much else is known about him. Note that the villian is big blind, and I am UTG. Whats your play here and why?

***** Hand History for Game 2826161620 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, October 04, 21:15:20 EDT 2005
Table Table 49766 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: bigsexy2179 ( $210.25 )
Seat 2: lisa91471 ( $175.35 )
Seat 3: Tarmtung ( $206 )
Seat 5: HippoDoyle ( $191.35 )
Seat 6: HOTTUBBY ( $218.25 )
Seat 9: gmiller ( $274.95 )
Seat 10: mezquital ( $169.60 )
Seat 4: EvilEcstasy_ ( $197 )
Seat 7: Just1Pot ( $200.75 )
Seat 8: mbrand32 ( $198 )
bigsexy2179 posts small blind [$1].
lisa91471 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to EvilEcstasy_ [ As Ah ]
Tarmtung folds.
EvilEcstasy_ raises [$8].
HippoDoyle folds.
HOTTUBBY folds.
Just1Pot folds.
mbrand32 folds.
gmiller folds.
mezquital folds.
bigsexy2179 folds.
lisa91471 raises [$12].
EvilEcstasy_ ???

[edudlive]

all in..

[spino1i]

all in..

reasoning? Wouldnt they just fold?

[Darby]

I dont play 50NL, but at 25NL I push all day here... Reason being that to make that reraise from the big blind he must really like his hand so I figure to get a call. Maybe not at 50NL though.

[r8ed]

All-in reasoning:
Anybody raising that much thinks they have a real hand. They will call. If they fold, you at least got their preflop raises without getting sucked out on.

[PokerPatNEU]

Yeah but the thing about reraising an obvious showing of strength pre flop is that it tips your hand a LOT. Even people with KK have to stop and frown for a second when they get reraised after showing pre flop strength. KK is probably the only hand that will pay off an all in here, and there are more hands villain is capable of holding that will pay you off more if you just reraise a substantial amount (another 2x his raise or so) and force him to call, so you can just take it down on the flop. Pushing is good in 25 and 50 NL, because donks will call with QT suited....but i would say against your standard 100NL+ opponent, pushing is just going to net you the small pot the majority of the time.

{This post has been removed}

[spino1i]

why is there even any discussion here about this play ? the move is all in pre flop all day long

I move all-in he folds with any less than aces. This gets me no where. Keep in mind this is 200 NL!

[edudlive]

all in..

reasoning? Wouldnt they just fold?

They either A) like their hand or B) don't think you like yours that much

Push them, if they have A, then they'll call and lose their stack, if they have B they'll fold and you get a decent pot from the PF raises

He has a high pocket pair most likely (at the very least, he has AK), and probably isn't going to lay it down...so either reraise HUGE or go all in...there is no call here

This is the perfect preflop situation for aces, take advantage.

[spino1i]

all in..

reasoning? Wouldnt they just fold?

They either A) like their hand or B) don't think you like yours that much

Push them, if they have A, then they'll call and lose their stack, if they have B they'll fold and you get a decent pot from the PF raises

He has a high pocket pair most likely (at the very least, he has AK), and probably isn't going to lay it down...so either reraise HUGE or go all in...there is no call here

This is the perfect preflop situation for aces, take advantage.

I garuntee most TAG players at 200 NL will fold their hand will anything less than aces if I push. His reraise is him trying to see where he is at. A push all-in by me tells him he's behind, and he will fold.

[DogOnMySide]

Isn't this the reason why with aces you often either win small or win huge. There is little in-between.

All-in.

If he calls, you just have to win the hand.
If he doesn't, you won his large PFR and an acceptable pot, and you move on.

My experience is very limited compared to most FTR regs, but in it I have noticed that extracting value from aces by playing clever-clever is dangerous.

Great hand - don't piss about with it.

[CrunchyNuts]

Sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question.

[Silly String]

IMO, you've got to re-raise here. By calling and giving him a free flop you risk losing your whole stack to a tough decision, unless you can let go of AA easier than me.
Did he trip up?
Did he flop a flush or flush draw with TP?

I would re-raise to $40 or $50. See how much he likes his hand. If he doesn't, you win the PFR with minimal risk. If he does call, you get a better idea of his hand. I get more money in the pot while I have the best hand and position. On that flop you have to be ready to push and take it down right there.
If he reraises you All-in pre-flop, he has the other AA and pray for an uncoordinated board or 4 hearts or spades. If he pushes KK there, he is a moron.
I would re-raise and give up the deception to get more money in the pot while I'm ahead. I am willing to win an additional $50 instead of $175, to avoid losing $175 by giving up a cheap flop.

[Lukie]

flop you have to be ready to push and take it down right there.
If he reraises you All-in pre-flop, he has the other AA and pray for an uncoordinated board or 4 hearts or spades. If he pushes KK there, he is a moron.

Um...........

2 players having AA (or any matching PP) on the same hand is incredibly rare. Pushing KK after a lot of pre-flop action isn't exactly a dumb thing to do either. It's standard...

To the original poster, I would push in that situation. If you don't push, definately re-raise. Assuming your opponent is somewhat competent, a reraise from the blinds almost always means a huge hand, especially if the original raise was from UTG+1, where you were. I would put them on KK/QQ, maybe AK. You will get action from hands other then AA. KK calls a push here all day long.

[dsaxton]

Reraise the size of the pot and consider trapping if he reraises.

[edudlive]

You're setting yourself up for hard decisions if you don't push here. It is fairly reasonable to say that this person could have TT-KK, what are you going to do if the flop comes with a face card? Let him bluff you out? I'd rather win the small pot than lose the big one, or if I'm going to lose the big pot...I'd rather get my money in preflop with the best hand.

[bencathers]

You push and if he hits his card he wins. Either way the majority of your stack is going in unless you have a super read on him. If the flop comes up with two Q's, do you believe he has QQ or AQ...can you tell based on his betting?

I think its read dependent... if you can know when you are behind on the flop, then call and play him on the flop. Otherwise this is your best chance to push and see what transpires.

What happens?

[STIdrivr]

I would raise or push. It looks like he likes his hand. Unless you have ben stealing a lot of pots and you think he is just trying to re-steal then you can just raise it.

[arkana]

Out of position I think I raise pot here.

[Les_Worm]

Stacks are too deep to push b/c he will likely not call. I reraise to like $40. This still sends the message that you are strong but he is likely to call.

[Corey]

your either all in or reraise never call with aces.. Id reraise to at least 30 to 50...

[J_Tizzle23]

more stupid shit from early days...

[Bmxicle]

Make it 35, she will fold alot, but when she doesn't pot it on the flop and go from there.

[J_Tizzle23]

isn't it amazing the stupid shit you post early in a poker career...

[Lukie]

I'd call an all-in on the turn all day long holding AA with the board: KcQh4c Ac when there was a raise, reraise, and rereraise preflop. What are you behind here? JT? QcJc? Only at my home games...

[edudlive]

I'd call an all-in on the turn all day long holding AA with the board: KcQh4c Ac when there was a raise, reraise, and rereraise preflop. What are you behind here? JT? QcJc? Only at my home games...

It was an example, not the greatest but you should be able to understand the basic underlying point without nitpicking the cards used in the example.

[dsaxton]

K. I'm back, I wanna go through this real quick.
This is a possible scenario, though very realistic, only imaginative.

You reraise 45 or so dollars...and she calls (..wow must be a nice hand)

Flop: KcQh4c
she checks and you make a sizeable bet, 60 dollars or so ---- and she A)calls or B) raises you with maybe 2 pair, maybe a pair(pocket or made), maybe a straight draw, maybe a flush draw, or maybe nothing ... anyhoo, she calls then comes the turn

Turn: KcQh4c Ac
she checks and you bet out having now made your set. ---- she check-raises you all-in. Now she is most certain to have something, right? Now you have an incredibly tough decision, pretty much relying on reads, which arent the most reliable to do on-line in the first place...she has most certainly made a hand or is giving a terrific bluff of one, and leaving you with the stroke-inducing decision of whether to lay down your set of aces, (which would not be an easy thing to do for anyone) or to call and maybe be crippled by a hand you should have dealt with preflop... With this situation it is almost always fold...so, say you lay down your aces and she collects the pot, showing ...ah, say ...JdJh --- which by no means beat your hand but had you in a great position to make you lay down anything but a flush or possibly a straight...

Sure this might not be anything close to what happened or happens often, but it could have happened none-the-less, and you could have prevented it all from pushing the best hand to a PFR. Sure it was a lot of chips, but if she thought her hand was good enough to raise to 12, why not go to the green? And say you did push and she called, and out drew you for a straight, or a flush...then you still made the right play with your hand...as read in theory of poker by that sklansky guy: Play as if you can see your opponents hand (...or something of that nature anyway...) which would be you seeing that she in-fact does not have you beat, so put HER at the disadvantage instead of leaving yourself out to dry with a nice hand.

"You might have to make decisions after the flop if you don't go all-in," is a pretty lame justification for moving in preflop. The fact is that he expects to win more by reraising a more callable amount before the flop. If he gets outflopped and it becomes obvious he's beat, oh well, he still made the right play by getting his opponent to commit more chips when he's almost dead.

I guess if you're absolutely terrified of playing after the flop, then maybe moving in is the best play for you psychologically, but it's not for those who are comfortable playing poker and are interested in making money.

[Lukie]

I'd call an all-in on the turn all day long holding AA with the board: KcQh4c Ac when there was a raise, reraise, and rereraise preflop. What are you behind here? JT? QcJc? Only at my home games...

It was an example, not the greatest but you should be able to understand the basic underlying point without nitpicking the cards used in the example.

I understood your underlying point, but the example you used did not prove the point you were trying to make... in fact it did the opposite.

[Lukie]

The opponent pushing the KQ4 flop though would be pretty scary, because they could easily be holding QQ or KK. Once the A comes on the turn though it's all over.

[edudlive]

The opponent pushing the KQ4 flop though would be pretty scary, because they could easily be holding QQ or KK. Once the A comes on the turn though it's all over.

Well, with that huge flop bet, you're probably not going to see the turn lol (I tried to help him come up with a better example but it was too late at night )

[Rondavu]

At this level there's no question in my mind that you reraise him, but NOT all in. You reraise to about $30-36.

There's a similar situation that merits a notion of discussion. You make a full house on a paired board, and wait for the nut flush or straight draw to hit. Against a solid player you don't want to push on the turn or river if your stack is deep, because they're smart enough to write "nice full house" in the chat and move on. I've had it happen. underestimation of a smart opponent robs you of value opportunity. It's better in that spot to make large chunky value bets against certain people.

Against a tight smart crowd of players, value is often the best option. You guys can't seriously sit here and tell this guy that pushing $180 at a reraise of $12 is the best play against a smart player. You're going to get a large piece of KK's stack on most flops anyway.

Given that you will still cripple KK with a simple reraise, doesn't it make sense to get some value from lesser holdings since it doesn't sabotage a possible KK payoff? I mean you reraise to $36, and KK is going to push a lot, while a whole host of other hands call.

[bair]

in my opinion a push here is almost as idiotic as a fold

[BIGandRICH]

i have no 1/2 expierience... but in similar situations.. i usually make it about 1/3rd of my stack, unless i'm confident he'll call a push that would be making it about $65 here.

[Aquinas]

Unless u've been pushing AK, QQ into shallow pots previously with this player, pushing seems silly. He'll just fold. Reraise. There is too little in the pot to call, unless u are willing to let go of the aces to a scary flop (TJQ would be the worst if u just call!). I reraise to 50. And if he calls I put him on KK (folding to a flopped K if he reps the set well) and pay off JJ QQ sets. But then again AA KK and QQ are not my most profitable hands...JJ and AJ are, so I might be playing them wrong.

[jmontis]

I'd raise to $36

[Miffed22001]

spoilt for choice
while i dont disagree with the push i wouldnt here as im 50/50 as to whether opp will call the push, although to counter that it isnt a very big reraise so opp thinks they are strong.
my prefered play is to call here.
i have position on the bb reraiser post flop and it is unlikely but not impossible that opp puts themsleves ahead post flop and probably doesnt put me on AA.
i like this play simply because while there is obviously a chance my aces can get cracked my aim is to try and make the most out of them. If i was sure i could get opp to call my push here then i push no arguement. But if not then i want to look as if im making a stupid play post flop when in fact im holding a top hand and am probably ahead. my thinking is therefore to call and look to make the most from the hand post flop rather than getting it all in preflop (unless i have a guarenteed call from opp)

[mxiu]

Raise pot or push.

[synthesist]

Pot it after the raise and if they call, hammer the flop unless it is incredibly scary. Can they catch a set? Sure they can. That would be poker gods punishing you for not going all-in pre-flop. This way you can, potentially, save some $$$ if disaster strikes. I'm thinking they have AK myself.

Incredibly scary might be 3 suited connectors in a suit other then one of yours.

The best hand would be a rainbow of low cards I believe. Say 8, 5, 2.

Syn

[lamaros]

Raise pot (my preference), or push.

Unless you have an image that will provoke a call you will get a fold more than a call on AI here with you both having so much money.