flush flops freak me out

[johnny_fish]

The inner fish awakes and takes over when the flush appears on the flop.. Please help me close this leak.

** Game ID 547878264 starting - 2005-10-20 02:06:51
** Green Drake [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- johnny291281 sitting in seat 1 with $18.99
- Pixit sitting in seat 2 with $13.29
- finnish_fox sitting in seat 3 with $20.90
- outnumber sitting in seat 5 with $31.32
- jarxmn5 sitting in seat 6 with $19.50
- dwikop sitting in seat 7 with $13.03
- ElitEast13 sitting in seat 8 with $14.19 [Dealer]
- capu84 sitting in seat 9 with $29.44
- milan3 sitting in seat 10 with $19.60

capu84 posted the small blind - $0.10
milan3 posted the big blind - $0.20
** Dealing card to johnny291281: 5 of Clubs, 5 of Diamonds
johnny291281 called - $0.20
Pixit folded
finnish_fox folded
outnumber folded
jarxmn5 called - $0.20
dwikop called - $0.20
ElitEast13 folded
capu84 called - $0.20
milan3 checked

** Dealing the flop: 2 of Hearts, 5 of Hearts, 7 of Hearts
capu84 checked
milan3 bet - $0.60
johnny291281 called - $0.60
jarxmn5 folded
dwikop folded
capu84 folded

** Dealing the turn: 3 of Spades
milan3 checked
johnny291281 bet - $2.00
milan3 raised - $4.00
johnny291281 raised - $9.00
milan3 went all-in - $15.00
johnny291281 went all-in - $9.19


** Game ID 547889262 starting - 2005-10-20 02:17:20
** Green Drake [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- johnny291281 sitting in seat 1 with $19.80
- abcstore sitting in seat 2 with $19.80
- finnish_fox sitting in seat 3 with $20.95
- LVm3rlin sitting in seat 4 with $5.30
- outnumber sitting in seat 5 with $44.27
- jarxmn5 sitting in seat 6 with $8.60
- dwikop sitting in seat 7 with $13.93
- WolvesFI sitting in seat 8 with $3.13
- capu84 sitting in seat 9 with $27.59 [Dealer]
- milan3 sitting in seat 10 with $38.49

milan3 posted the small blind - $0.10
johnny291281 posted the big blind - $0.20
WolvesFI posted to play - $0.20
** Dealing card to johnny291281: 7 of Diamonds, 10 of Hearts
abcstore folded
finnish_fox folded
LVm3rlin folded
outnumber folded
jarxmn5 called - $0.20
dwikop folded
WolvesFI checked
capu84 folded
milan3 called - $0.20
johnny291281 checked

** Dealing the flop: 10 of Clubs, 7 of Clubs, 4 of Clubs
milan3 checked
johnny291281 checked
jarxmn5 checked
WolvesFI checked

** Dealing the turn: King of Clubs
milan3 checked
johnny291281 checked
jarxmn5 folded
WolvesFI bet - $0.20
milan3 folded
johnny291281 called - $0.20

** Dealing the river: 2 of Clubs
johnny291281 checked
WolvesFI checked


** Game ID 547919004 starting - 2005-10-20 02:49:12
** Green Drake [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- johnny291281 sitting in seat 1 with $21.85
- abcstore sitting in seat 2 with $20.78
- Palmroth sitting in seat 3 with $13.51
- NvrSlwPla_AA sitting in seat 4 with $20.80
- lianfeng sitting in seat 5 with $2.20
- drFinkel sitting in seat 6 with $5.65
- snizzo sitting in seat 7 with $18.55 [Dealer]
- WolvesFI sitting in seat 8 with $11.13
- capu84 sitting in seat 9 with $19.86
- milan3 sitting in seat 10 with $41.14

WolvesFI posted the small blind - $0.10
capu84 posted the big blind - $0.20
** Dealing card to johnny291281: 9 of Hearts, 9 of Spades
milan3 folded
johnny291281 called - $0.20
abcstore folded
Palmroth folded
NvrSlwPla_AA folded
lianfeng called - $0.20
drFinkel folded
snizzo folded
WolvesFI called - $0.20
capu84 checked

** Dealing the flop: 6 of Spades, 4 of Spades, 3 of Spades
WolvesFI checked
capu84 checked
johnny291281 bet - $0.75
lianfeng folded
WolvesFI called - $0.75
capu84 folded

** Dealing the turn: 4 of Clubs
WolvesFI checked
johnny291281 bet - $1.50
WolvesFI called - $1.50

** Dealing the river: 5 of Hearts
WolvesFI checked
johnny291281 bet - $3.00
WolvesFI called - $3.00

[SwanDawg]

I myslef, and I'm still in learning stage would come in with a lot more strength with those pockets even in EP. Especially the 9's. i would think that a 4 BB bet might would run out of of those suspected flush draw players. Then lets see what the flop brings you.

Best of Fortune

SwanDawg

[SwanDawg]

Also looks like the table has a lot of limpers, but not sure since you didn't say. If so though the raises would knock em down to two or less opponents.

[Demiparadigm]

1)This post sucks.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=2566

2)You seem to be good at putting a lot of money in while you are behind, while managing to keep the pot small while ahead.

[johnny_fish]

1)This post sucks.

I didn't include reads, because I don't watch my opps, unless they do something out of the ordinary (3-4 tabling).
My table image is TAGG I guess.

Anyway, results:
hand #1. Opp showed K9 hearts. I can't differentiate between a made flush or a flush draw. Looking back, I feel so stupid to go AI on that board.

hand #2. I split the pot with QdJd. Should have potted the flop?

hand #3. Lost to As4d. I thought I was up against the flush draw, hence the turn and river bet. I see that the river should be checked behind, but what about the turn?

[PokerPatNEU]

When you flop a set on a 3-suited board, you are not very far behind a flopped flush. You have 6 outs to make a boat on the turn, 1 out to make quads on the turn. If the turn is a blank you get another 3 outs to make a boat on the river. Play flopped sets aggressively on the flop when the board has 3 of a suit, you can get loose calls from draws that you are ahead of the majority of the time, and the rare-ish occurance that your opponent has flopped a flush is not the end of the world because you are drawing live to improve and beat it.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Flopping a flush: 118-1 (0.84%)

Where you worried that someone had flopped a higher set? I don't know the exact odds of set-over-set, but I'm willing to bet they are much better than flopping a set and having someone flop a flush. Even if someone flopped a flush you are in much better shape because you have several outs as oppossed to being against an over set where you are almost drawing dead.

The point is that you're being too passive. Don't assume you're beat unless some gives you reason to think otherwise. You have to play this hand aggressively because you're very likely to be ahead, but you're also very vulnerable.

[johnny_fish]

Ok, lesson learned: I don't fear set over set, so I certainly shouldn't fear a flopped flush..

So I should reraise the flop on the first 2 hands. How about the turn play on the first hand? +/- EV?

[Dunk]

It's not the flopped flush that would scare me, it's the possibility that a fourth suited card will come and deliver the flush to the person holding a single card of that suit.

In the first two cases, johnny doesn't even have a card of the suit, and in the last it's only a nine, so if it does come to a fourth card he still won't be confident.

So I understand pushing a bit post-flop, but it looks like you have to ditch if someone pushes back, and if they just call you may soon be a sucker.

[PokerPatNEU]

It's not the flopped flush that would scare me, it's the possibility that a fourth suited card will come and deliver the flush to the person holding a single card of that suit.

In the first two cases, johnny doesn't even have a card of the suit, and in the last it's only a nine, so if it does come to a fourth card he still won't be confident.

So I understand pushing a bit post-flop, but it looks like you have to ditch if someone pushes back, and if they just call you may soon be a sucker.

You're explaining the exact situation that we hope to be in at this point. A set vs. a flush draw is a perfect opportunity to extract chips from a drawing opponent while you are the favorite in the hand. For example: in our first hand, our opponent holding 1 card of suit is probably the best case scenario, besides them holding 22.

pokenum -h 5c 5d - ah kd -- 2h 5h 7h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7h 5h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5c 5d 710 71.72 280 28.28 0 0.00 0.717
Kd Ah 280 28.28 710 71.72 0 0.00 0.283

You are a strong favorite here, and should get chips in giving your opponent bad odds to chase with his A high flush draw. Even against an over pair and a draw, Hero is a strong favorite on this flop.

pokenum -h 5c 5d - ad ah -- 2h 5h 7h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7h 5h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5c 5d 641 64.75 349 35.25 0 0.00 0.647
Ad Ah 349 35.25 641 64.75 0 0.00 0.353

Against a made flush we are an underdog, but not as bad as villain would be an underdog if he is drawing.

pokenum -h 5c 5d - ah 9h -- 2h 5h 7h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7h 5h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5c 5d 341 34.44 649 65.56 0 0.00 0.344
Ah 9h 649 65.56 341 34.44 0 0.00 0.656

[Dunk]

Very cool analysis. Thanks.