How to protect AA with big PFR and lots of callers

[Silly String]

Reads are not important for this example:
50NL full ring(9)

I am in BB and have $50 and am dealt A A
EP2 has ~ $20
Button ~ $50
SB ~ $50

EP raises to $2.50, Button calls, SB calls, I re-raise to $10, all call.
4 to the flop. EDIT: Pot =$40
6 4 T

What is my play now? How do I protect my hand? I have to suspect everyone is out there hunting sets playing to that big of a raise. Board is pretty safe. If I bet even $20 dollars I am committed to calling an all-in right? What if someone calls my $20 bet, do I have to check/fold to a turn bet? Should I just push now to protect from the diamond draw and hope people missed their sets? How would you proceed?

[EricE]

Pot is $30. I would lead out with $20. If called or raised you may be up against a set but it is also likely they hold PPs JJ – AA. I would take this all the way.

[Silly String]

Pot is $40 on flop.
If you are going to take it all the way, what is the point of betting $20+ on flop? Why not just push now? Are you trying to get a caller here? I think I am happy just winning what is in the middle now.

[BankItDrew]

I push here.

You are not going to lay down to any bet. You are going to be commited here to any raise on your $20 flop bet. You may be beat here by a set but you still have 2 outs plus runner runner on straights and flushes to help out (not saying you should count on them).

But you should suspect that someone here has an overpair and may be thinking the same ting you are. maybe the other two missed their sets (if that many were camping in the first place).

[ville18]

push, eh.

[r8ed]

Push. As BankItPayette reason, are you really going to fold here? In fact betting anything less than pot would let on that you missed. Why? Because there are two suited and even if you hit TTT, you want to prottect against the flush. If somebody raises preflop and then bets 1/2 or less on a scary board it usually means they missed but feel the need to cbet. Usually.

[EricE]

Why the heck would you push and attempt to take it here. IF you feel you are best and not worried about sets…if you are willing to take it all the way then why try and make them fold?

OK, so pot is $40, I put in $30. Yes, I do want calls. Don’t you like money?

Especialy if they all hold PPs. You have the same chance to hit your set as they do. I am willing to take a small chance they suck out on me for a bigger pot.

[Les_Worm]

Easy Push.

[Irisheyes]

With the flush draw there you have to push to protect.

[r8ed]

Especialy if they all hold PPs. You have the same chance to hit your set as they do. I am willing to take a small chance they suck out on me for a bigger pot.

I doubt more than one (two MAX) has a PP. Each successive caller has odds to call with lesser holdings preflop. Then if you bet 1/2 pot, each successive caller has odds to call that flop bet. Pushing will give the least odds to unmade hands. If you lose to a flopped set then so be it. If they all fold - take the pot and be happy.

[BankItDrew]

Each successive caller has odds to call with lesser holdings preflop.

This is key.

Worst case scenerio: Guy on immediate left has a strong draw and decides to call the 3/4 bet. Maybe the guy next to him has a strong draw as well? So he calls. Guy next to him has pp. All of a sudden, our fishy set camper finds reason to call and hit his set to take down the pot.

Our hand is not going to improve, only theirs. End it here!

[Fnord]

Why the heck would you push and attempt to take it here.

It's a big pot and you don't want turn and river cards beating your pair. You make money when players fold out a significant amount of pot equity.

[Silly String]

Damn, this would have been so much easier if only one of these jackasses had called. I pumped it to $10 preflop to protect against just this kind of situation. I can't believe I had 4 callers. Once you have this sized pot we all seem to agree you can't get away without putting it all in the middle. I was just super happy not to see a Q or a J on the flop. I thought those were very likely holdings amongst this crowd. Here is the result:

[b}I pushed $40 and Button called with TT[/b]
I get no love, and yell REBUY!!!

Thanks for the input. I am just glad my reasoning was logical. I think I might like EricE's line with the $25-30 bet and call any push. More likely to get the flush draw to make a serious mistake. Then again, I like the smell of the money in the middle.

[Fnord]

You lose your stack here.

[Lukie]

Easy Push.

yes

[Toad13]

before reading the results I was thinking he checks; reason only the set will bet everyone agreed the str8/flush draw will call down any bet. My thought is only the TT will bet this flop knowing there is an over PP. The turn is blank push, same results. My thought on that flop only TT-AA calls that big of a preflop bet or high suited cards. Please let me know if and why this is wrong I am not that good but trying.

[PerfectDodge]

Flipside, you're lookin at pocket T's, decent, you decide to play them, and flop another T (the 'other guys' case). How do Trips look with someone pushing all in?

- What would you do when the guy in front of you (with the unknown AA) pushes all in?
-What would you do if the guy in front of you raises, but to a lesser extent?
-Checks?

[EricE]

- What would you do when the guy in front of you (with the unknown AA) pushes all in?

Easy Call on a 64T flop.

- What would you do if the guy in front of you raises, but to a lesser extent?

Likely call, git jiggy with it on the turn.

- What would you do when the guy in front of you (with the unknown AA) Checks?

Bet 2/3 pot.

You aren’t getting away from this. No matter your action you are in for some hurt unless you somehow put him on a set and fold.

[Robert]

I check and push over when someone decides to take a stab at a monster pot. That way you give somone a chance to put money in the pot with a hand worse than yours.

If my read says all opps are very passive postflop I just push right away!

Of course, either way you loose your stack to a set, put in the long run the checkraisepush will yield more money than an instapush imo.

[thirteen]

Flipside, you're lookin at pocket T's, decent, you decide to play them, and flop another T (the 'other guys' case). How do Trips look with someone pushing all in?

- What would you do when the guy in front of you (with the unknown AA) pushes all in?
-What would you do if the guy in front of you raises, but to a lesser extent?
-Checks?

I read this three times and I'm still not sure where you were going with this? Where you insinuating that the set might fold if you open push? That' won't happen. If someone called $10 pfr to hit their set, you can bet they're calling a push when they do hit it.

And the answer to all three of your questions is that I'd push all my chips in with a set of tens here no matter what people around me do.

[thirteen]

I check and push over when someone decides to take a stab at a monster pot. That way you give somone a chance to put money in the pot with a hand worse than yours.

Do you think this play gives you any added fold equity? If thats your line here than I think you're wrong. Your giving someone the opportunity to put in more money to an already big pot. A flush draw is getting 3 to 1 if you open push. If that same flush draw puts $20 into this hand, then you push for your remaining $40 we have a $100 pot. He can safely bet his last $20 getting the correct odds to call. The scenario gets worse if you check, someone bets $20 behind you and gets one or two calls, do you want to risk taking 4 people to the river with you?

Of all the lines available I think the c/r all-in is the worst.

If my read says all opps are very passive postflop I just push right away!

Pushing is your best option here, passive or not. In this situation with this pot and 4 way action, your pushing here. It has nothing to do with the passiveness of the table.

Of course, either way you loose your stack to a set, put in the long run the checkraisepush will yield more money than an instapush imo.

I've already covered this point above.

[Robert]

I know that I will end allin either way: I dont care if I push right away and the flushdraw calls without getting potodds to do so, or opponent leads out, I push and he calls with a flush draw getting proper odds on his last call - either way opponent ends allin with me with a flush draw on the flop with the worst of it - the way he's getting allin on the flop doesnt really mater to me.

I understand your concern about the situation where opp bets and his bet gets 2 callers behind and then you push, creating a multiway allin pot on the flop with two cards to come. This might happen from time to time, but I dont think it will happen often enough to make the c/r allin profitable. I believe that there is a lot of value in the c/r allin, because in such a huge pot theres a good chance that one of the 3 opps will try to take a stab at the pot when its checked to them.

[thirteen]

I believe that there is a lot of value in the c/r allin, because in such a huge pot theres a good chance that one of the 3 opps will try to take a stab at the pot when its checked to them.

Can you show me where the value IS? You've stated in both posts that there's value in it but haven't yet explained the value? What does the check raise accomplish other than giving others the opportunity to price themselves into the hand.

I think you're confused because you feel the c/r has some sort of power play aspect that will "scare" opponents into folding. If you keep playing this way, you'll quickly see why this is wrong.

Saying that you'll wind up all-in either way is not a reason to c/r all-in. Poker is about making the correct decision. Checking a big pot and allowing others to price in their draws is a mistake.

[JCooper]

And if they just check it through then you've given one free card to 4 opponents. What do you do on the turn? Same reasoning? Many people cannot let you check to them twice without a bet, but maybe these guys are smart enough to realize a semi-bluff is useless here because the better hand is NOT folding.

You have to give your opponent an opportunity to make a mistake, without making one yourself. The push is the only way to do this. This way, you bet when you have the best of it (most likely), and if they call with a draw they are calling with the worst of it. And this is all we can ever hope for.

[Robert]

I think you've misunderstood what I want with the c/r. I'm not doing it because of fold equity (and yeah, I know that theres probably less fold equity in the c/r than in the instapush).

The point of the c/r is for someone with TP, MP, flushdraw or whatever to bet when its checked to them. At this level many feel they have to take a stab at such a huge pot when its checked to them, so I'm not really scared of it being checked around. If I instapush hands like TP "might" call, but most of the time they'll probably fold recognizing an overpair. If I check, they bet maybe $20 or $30, I reraise allin and they fold - I gain more money than with the instapush. Hell If I'm lucky they might feel commited to call my reraise allin after they've already put money in the pot on the flop. He's making a mistake by ending up allin with the worst of it, and therefore I gain more.

About the flushdraw issue:
If he bets with a flush draw, I reraise allin, he might be getting proper pot odds to draw on _his last call_. But thats not the right way to look at it. The pot on the flop is $40 and we both have $40 behind (in this example lets just presume opp is either the SB or button). If we both end up allin on the flop our opponent is getting 1:2 odds on his money - he has to put the rest of his stack of $40 in the pot to win $80 (the rest of my stack ($40) and the prf money (also $40)). He's getting 1:2 odds with two cards to come - he's NOT getting proper odds to draw at his flush, and therefore he makes a mistake, and I make money (in the long run) because of that mistake.
It doesnt matter if he puts the $40 in the pot all at once (by calling a instapush allin) or if he does it by first betting $20 and afterwards calling of the rest of his stack to my c/r allin. He's still overall only getting 1:2 odds on the flop.

[EricE]

It doesnt matter if he puts the $40 in the pot all at once (by calling a instapush allin) or if he does it by first betting $20 and afterwards calling of the rest of his stack to my c/r allin. He's still overall only getting 1:2 odds on the flop.

It does matter. Consider the following:
We are in bb so we are second to act.
If we push, everyone else has to call the AI or fold. Let’s say the SB is on the flush draw (worst case, last to act after we do). If everyone calls, he has the correct odds to call with his flush draw. No way we can solve that. Nothing we can do. But the reality is that very likely only one of the other two are going to call giving the SB incorrect odds to call with a flush draw.

Now consider the check raise.
We check. EP bets $20, Button calls, SB calls because he has correct odds
We push. Now the chances are extremely good that EP and button will call, again giving the SB correct odds to call with a flush draw.

See? They are different.

[Silly String]

I agree. You don't want to let other people in on this pot. Get heads up and take it down.

Anyway after finishing this discussion, does anyone have any suggestions for my pre-flop play? I had two other options, neither of which I like:
A) Raise less and keep the pot-size manageable for post-flop play. Meanwhile, hoping to thin the field. I don't like this play
B) Raise more and risk losing all my customers, but assuring a thinner field. Again the thinner field/smaller pot opens up post-flop play options.

Anyone?

[Robert]

It doesnt matter if he puts the $40 in the pot all at once (by calling a instapush allin) or if he does it by first betting $20 and afterwards calling of the rest of his stack to my c/r allin. He's still overall only getting 1:2 odds on the flop.

It does matter. Consider the following:
We are in bb so we are second to act.
If we push, everyone else has to call the AI or fold. Let’s say the SB is on the flush draw (worst case, last to act after we do). If everyone calls, he has the correct odds to call with his flush draw. No way we can solve that. Nothing we can do. But the reality is that very likely only one of the other two are going to call giving the SB incorrect odds to call with a flush draw.

Now consider the check raise.
We check. EP bets $20, Button calls, SB calls because he has correct odds
We push. Now the chances are extremely good that EP and button will call, again giving the SB correct odds to call with a flush draw.

See? They are different.

I know - my example was minded on the situation where one opp bets when checked to and the rest fold - which is what will occure most of the time (obvious it depends on the players and their cards though).

Your example demands that EP bets $20 and the rest calls before I can push. The question then is wether this will happen often enough to make a checkraise allin -EV compared to a instapush. I dont exactly know the right answer (obvious it depends again), but I dont think so - I might be wrong though. The instapush is obvious a good choice, but I'm just trying to explain why a checkraise allin might yield more value in the long run. Obvious you do get your aces cracked more times when doing the c/r allin, but on the other hand the pot you win will be bigger.

[PerfectDodge]

To thirteen:

Nope; honest questions, and to be completely honest again, your reply really hit the nail. I'll be thinkin of that when I see it happen. They may seem like easy decisions to you guys... hell, I hope they do, because that's why I'm asking; I'm still new, trying to get a feel for how you guys handle certain situations that I know will come up sometime and hopefully I can think back to this very thread for. Thanks to all who posted responses to my questions, and apologies for any misconceptions.

[veryrocky]

good reraise size, 4x the initial raise... amazing that you get 4 callers.. heh the pot size is 40 dollars and you have 40 dollars left. theres only one decision left.. bet pot size which is your entire stack... theres nothing else you can ask for when you have wired Aces. if your opponent hits a set than you pay him off... the flops you do not want to see with aces is

1) a paired board
2) three to a straight
3) three to a flush

so my opinion is... move in.