Most go broke here?

[spino1i]

And I lose only 20$ total when i have AK against a set of 9s on a king high flop.

Well played?

***** Hand History for Game 3412693379 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, January 21, 20:19:28 EDT 2006
Table Table 69118 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: NigelWinters ( $234.35 )
Seat 4: ChoadStein ( $290.50 )
Seat 5: stiffstoff ( $82.30 )
Seat 6: RyanDevera ( $424.65 )
Seat 3: Evil_Ecstasy ( $393 )
Seat 2: antikiller1 ( $195 )
antikiller1 posts small blind [$1].
Evil_Ecstasy posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Evil_Ecstasy [ Ks Ad ]
ChoadStein folds.
stiffstoff calls [$2].
RyanDevera calls [$2].
NigelWinters calls [$2].
antikiller1 folds.
Evil_Ecstasy raises [$8].
stiffstoff calls [$8].
RyanDevera calls [$8].
NigelWinters calls [$8].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 9d, 6c ]
Evil_Ecstasy bets [$10].
stiffstoff calls [$10].
RyanDevera folds.
NigelWinters calls [$10].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
Evil_Ecstasy checks.
stiffstoff bets [$7].
NigelWinters raises [$25].
Evil_Ecstasy folds.
stiffstoff is all-In [$55.30]
NigelWinters calls [$37.30].
** Dealing River ** [ 7d ]
NigelWinters shows [ 9s, 9h ] a full house, Nines full of sixes.
stiffstoff doesn't show [ Ts, 6s ] three of a kind, sixes.
NigelWinters wins $192.60 from the main pot with a full house, Nines full of sixes.

[Fnord]

I bet the shit out of this pre-flop and on the flop. You're missing way too much value here.

[spino1i]

I bet the shit out of this pre-flop and on the flop. You're missing way too much value here.

Well I did bet the shit out of it pre-flop, and as for the flop had I bet big I would have gone broke

[gabe]

your weak bets make you look weak. since you chose to look weak you have to go broke with TPTK. If you pot the flop and someone plays back at you, you know they have a hand.

thats why betting more loses you less money.

[dsaxton]

your weak bets make you look weak. since you chose to look weak you have to go broke with TPTK. If you pot the flop and someone plays back at you, you know they have a hand.

thats why betting more loses you less money.

If he makes a smaller bet and someone plays back at him, he can also be confident he's beat. Most players are not capable of raise-bluffing a reasonable display of strength. These kinds of bets are a good way of finding out where you stand, getting value from marginal hands, and foldout out air when you're bluffing. When the pot starts becoming large, full pot bets usually either result in a fold from a worse hand or raise with a better one.

[gabe]

If he makes a smaller bet and someone plays back at him, he can also be confident he's beat.

i disagree.

Most players are not capable of raise-bluffing a reasonable display of strength.

his weak bet is not a display of strength.

When the pot starts becoming large, full pot bets usually either result in a fold from a worse hand or raise with a better one.

we want better hands to raise, so they way we dont have to go broke.

[Bmxicle]

[blanket statement]Why would any winning poker player go broke there[/blanket statement] But really, you need to be making it 12 or so preflop, and then betting about 2/3rd the pot on the flop. Against a tight 200nl player (of which there are plenty) its a very easy laydown to a raise or a checkraise of almost any kind. If they are a total donk then maybe you can go broke, but they have to be pretty donkeytronic to do that You have to isolate w/ AK, raising 8, and then basically giving the pot up on the flop is bad cause by the way you played the hand you don't like the flop when you hit, and you don;t like it when you miss, so you are just giving away money.

[Fnord]

Saxton makes good points that Gabe is dismissing too quickly.

However, by betting stronger worse hands will call off more money in these games and have less behind to win when they suck out.


$8 isn't a strong pre-flop raise after 3 limpers. In that game it's an opener.

At least raise to $12, I would probably go $16. If you only jamm AA/KK/QQ and maybe AK pre-flop from the blinds in these games, you won't get lots of action from most of the players (although the real donks will give you action, whatever you do.)

When you raise OOP, you really want to end it pre-flop or on the flop. If it goes multiple betting rounds, you're getting the way worst of it.

[Pingviini]

PFR was weak after limpers, I make it at least $10 or even $14, depending on the table of course. Flop bet was horrible, multiway pot and closer to 1/3 bet is just begging to get re-raised but this is table dependant as well. You also allow weak kings, straight draws and even middle pairs to hang along. Without any reads your turn fold was really good but I dont know what to think about that given the lack of strength you projected so gabe has a point there. I wouldnt have given it up. If you potted the flop perhaps then.

I disagree with Fnord about hammering PF because at least in the games I play people do have respect for 5x raises and there is no need for 8x. But again, very table dependant.

[dsaxton]

I'd probably play this hand identically, except I'd bet about $14 on the flop. I think raising to $8 out of the big blind is fine, assuming that is his standard preflop raise. Making a larger raise is basically turning his hand face up on the table before the action has even started, in a spot where he'll be out of position for the remainder of the hand.

[dalecooper]

I don't like the pre-flop. I always raise more (if I raise at all) with a lot of limping in front of me - you want to thin the herd, not juice the pot. As far as "turning the hand face-up," that's fine. If you see a flop with only one or maybe two opponents, even OOP, and they make you for a big pair or AK, you're still in fine shape unless they flop their set. Concealing your range of hands is overrated when it comes to unthinking opponents.

Flop bet is pretty weak as well. I'm not a habitual pot-bettor but if you're going to bet into a crowd on a draw-happy board, you gotta go strong. At least half the pot (and many would say *that* bet is weak).

spino1i - this is not necessarily a criticism but more of an observation. From your recent hand histories here it seems like you are ducking blows whenever you play - letting go of hands quickly, playing weak whenever you get a whiff of strength to minimize possible damage. Is that accurate? I myself have gone to a less ballistic approach most of the time lately, but you've gone well past me, it appears. Is it helping? Why did you make the change?

[alias2211]

As a general rule of thumb, I want to play big slick against one other player, not more if I can help it, so I bet to isolate, even out of the big blind. I think it's necessary to go around $15 on the PFR. A lot of this depends on your early limpers: if they're likely to call a PFR from you while you're in the BB, then it increases the likelihood of successive calls down the line as odds begin to get better for each caller, i.e. if the first limper is a calling station, give this play more thought or you might find yourself with a drawing hand (AK) in a huge multiway pot w/o position. I much prefer a fold around to my huge PFR from the BB than to be in that awkward situation.

$8 looks like a weak bet here, even if that wasn't the intention.

[Rondavu]

I disagree with Fnord about hammering PF because at least in the games I play people do have respect for 5x raises and there is no need for 8x. But again, very table dependant.

Very table dependant

I pretty much agree with the line Saxton took in this hand with the exception of preflop. You have to pop it large from the BB here. I mean if you're going to raise AT ALL in this spot (which you should), it needs to be large. I don't agree that this turns your cards face up. I see mid pocket pairs making this play at this level. Steals attempts are present (though infrequent) with a wide range.

I think I would have bet $20 on the flop, but I don't hate $10 either. The reason being that it's not unreasonable to min bet trap with a monster multiway, when 4th street is unlikely to hurt you. I see it sometimes, because the preflop aggressor recognizes great potential for an ambush. The clincher in favor of betting smaller in my opinion is this flop... [Kh, 9d, 6c] coupled with number of opponents. You see, a show of strength is going to be genuine and already made a large percentage of the time multiway on this absolutely blank board. You have to respect the reverse implied odds that AK carries, and the board is friendly enough to find out if they're in full force.