Damn i just lost 4 straight buyins at a table

[potdragn]

of course they were my fault, but which i still thought were semi-decent plays. Here are the major points and hands, 25NL, discuss please.

My first lost buyin: I am dealt AKo BB+2. The table has been sorta wild in the 10-12 hands ive seen with crazy betting. I just call, thinking someone behind me will raise. villain (delaer) calls for a quarter, BB raises for $3 on top. I call, as does villian. Flop is 5d 6c 8d. BB bets 3 into a 9 pot. i take a second, call. villian raises 10 on top. He was being super aggressive. I KNOW he has a low pair, I base this on his position, the cards he had been calling with and what he was showing down with. BB folds. I immediately raise all in for another 14 on top of his (3/4ths of his stack) and am all in. He immediately calls, and here ive i think ive made a terrible decision. Then he shows: Js 6h. 2nd pair, no draw. So i made the right read, and a decent play, but thats only if he doesnt call, or if I get lucky and my A or K hits.


2nd buyin: I had rebought, worked it to 30 (including by once again betting all in again against the same villian, but i had the goods, and he folded) , then this happened: Im SB, A8d. Same Villian, in mid position bets 5 on top to 5.25. I called, everyone else folded. Flop is Ks Qh 2d. I check, he checks. At this point, I think he has nothing, raising with crap and missed. turn is 4d, giving me flush draw. I check, he bets 5 into 10 pot. I min raise to 10, he calls. River is a Kc. I immediately go all in for 13 (about 1/3 of his stack. He think...thinks...thinks.....calls down with 6d6h.

Lost $16 on this hand: I had taken a break, and just came back, i posted .25 + .13 dead right before dealer position. I had 5d7d. Got to see the free flop of As 6s 9d with the community. BB bets the pot, I call with a gutshot (my first mistake) as does dealer and SB <- previous villian(and im telling you this was a wild table). Turn is my miracle 8, but it is a spade. BB bets 3 into an 8 pot, i raise to 6.50, EVERYONE calls (here im not sure if im beat or everyone is just maniacal, but im leaning to beat) River is Jd, so that kills one card flushes. I bet 7.50 (like half my stack, if someone raised, im folding) into a 31.50 pot, dealer calls, SB and BB fold, he has Js 7s. I knew someone had the flush, so i think the river bet was bad. but this hand in general is the kind i have to try and get away from, i was in for free, got a decent draw, hit the sucker end of a miracle and it costs me 2/3 of my stack.


Other losses: 4.25 with a pair of kings, mid kicker to a straight (hit gutshot on river), 5.75 on the very next hand to the same guy who stayed in to hit his flush on the river, 3.50 on the hand after that where i flopped an open ender and flush draw with JhQh and called down small bets to the river. Again this is something i have to try and get away from, losing a couple bad beats, then calling down draws (tho admittedly, 3.50 is nothing to see that hand to the river).

Then my last loss of the night: i am BB, dealt Td 4d. D-1 min raises to .50, i call. Flop is most i could ask for: 3d 5d 6d, i flopped a flush and open ended straight flush draw. SB bets a quarter, I raise to $1. 4 callers. Turn is 8h, i bet 5.25 into a 7.60 pot. 2 callers. River is Ks. I bet 10 into a 22.60 pot, he raises me for my last 6, I call(at this point, whats 6 more to finish of the hundo i dropped?), I lose because he has the nut flush. Once again, free cards get me in trouble.

I felt my play was relatively solid (for this level anyway, please bear that in mind), let me know what you think.

PS while I was writing this I took a break and then played a 10NL game and doubled my buyin within 15 hands playing the same way, sorta tight aggressive. Thanks for reading my book.

[pgil]

2nd buyin, you called $5 from the SB w/ A8s??? that seems like a losing play to me. the min raise on the turn really seems bad as well. if you had just called this, the pot would have been $10 less, and you would have had $5 more to push into him on the river, giving him a much more difficult decision.

[underminedsk]

um...where to start...

Open with AK, dont limp it. And certainly dont just call his raise. You should come over the top and find out where you stand, and set up a good C - betting situation postflop.

Dont call down with AK postflop unimproved. If you think he has shit, then RAISE HIM.

But at the same time, dont get your entire stack into a pot with unimproved overs. This is a real quick way to lose a buyin, no matter how marginal your opponents hand. After all, 25NL opponents are mostly fish, and will call you with anything.

Fold A8o preflop, ESPECIALLY TO A $5 raise. This is definatly setting you up for a huge loss. Even if you hit an A, you have no idea if your kicked.

Fold your flush draw on the turn. He's not giving you anywhere close to odds. Min raising accomplishes nothing, cause hes probably going to call anyway.

Dont push that river, when he has such a small amount left behind. More than likely hes going to call anyway, out of pot committedness.
...

calling a raise with T4d? no comment...

[potdragn]

Fold A8o preflop, ESPECIALLY TO A $5 raise. This is definatly setting you up for a huge loss. Even if you hit an A, you have no idea if your kicked.



calling a raise with T4d? no comment...

So you are discounting reads? What if someone is just raising random amounts every hand? I wait for AA or KK? That sounds a little silly to me. Let me stress, im not calling down every 5 dollar raise I see with A9s, except maybe against this guy.

As far as the 10 4s, i was BB for a quarter, and it was raised a quarter and called by 5 other people? isntthat the definition of pot odds? dont I have odds to hit my "miracle" flop, and of the times i hit that flop, what are my odds of winning against random hands? 2 cards give me straight flushes and the nuts, 4 cards higher that beat me if they have a pair of diamonds. Wouldnt this particular hand be +EV (at 25NL tables, prob not much higher) in the long run? DONT GET ME WRONG, I AM NOT SAYING T4d IS +EV.

[potdragn]

forgot to add, i think you were right pgil. also, i thought minraising would be a show of strength...when someone minraises me, im watching out, but i overestimated his reads or something.

Im not really complaining too much, i seem to pick up more on my bluffs than i lose on them, just gotta learn to play them a little better.

[Lukie]

1 dont get stacked with ace-high
2 dont call 20xbb raises with ace-rag
3 dont call psb's with 3 clean outs

(implied)

4 play less hands
5 raise more
6 call less

you're welcome

[Fnord]

You're not playing well. At the 100NL level, you is the fish.

[Pelion]

Fold A8o preflop, ESPECIALLY TO A $5 raise. This is definatly setting you up for a huge loss. Even if you hit an A, you have no idea if your kicked.

So you are discounting reads? What if someone is just raising random amounts every hand? I wait for AA or KK? That sounds a little silly to me. Let me stress, im not calling down every 5 dollar raise I see with A9s, except maybe against this guy.

There is no read that makes this play profitable. You have A8 not A9. Even if villain raises every A the same (A2-AA) you are still exactly at the break even point. There are exactly 6 bigger Aces and 6 smaller Aces than you.

Now thats looking on the brightside, where hitting the A will make you breakeven due to your kicker.

On the more realistic side is the situation where no nutter is going to loose enough with A2 when he hits his A, to make up for the times you hit yours against the guy with AA.

On top of that you have to consider the slight possibility that he will raise more often with AA (and take it further) than he will with A8.

It doesnt matter what read you have, if you go into a hand with a hand that is, at absolute best in the middle of his range, and with very few drawing prospects, then you will lose money.
Try and be a little more patience. If he is raising any A then come in with ATs and above. At least then you have some margin for error. Better would be to wait for AJ-AK, TT+ (or lower for sets), and SCs. That way he will be the one paying you in most of the pots where you go to showdown with him.

[Fnord]

Pelion makes a good point. CALLing a 20bb raise w/ A9s out of the big blind isn't a good play. However, I have no problem with pushing here...

[IowaSkinsFan]

Hand 1: no matter who you are playing with... when there is a nice sized pot on the flop, and some raises a bet and a call, THEY ALMOST DEFINATELY HAVE SOMETHING. He might be an idiot, but that idiot thinks his J6 is good! just stack him when you have something, you don't need to be so risky.

Also, when players are being aggressive, they think that someone is bluffing them if they come back with aggression. You were .

[Fnord]

Captain Obvious sez:
Players who don't raise often enough post-flop, tend not to fold when you re-raise...

[Rondavu]

I immediately raise all in for another 14 on top of his (3/4ths of his stack) and am all in. He immediately calls, and shows: Js 6h. 2nd pair, no draw.

Board is [Ks Qh 2d 4d Kc]. I immediately go all in for 13 (about 1/3 of his stack. He think...thinks...thinks.....calls down with 6d6h.

At this level, outplaying your opponents is a tricky dangerous game. You're better off making a hand, pushing hard, and letting them call you with worse hands. You're trying to row upstream, and it's not gonna work. Stop bluffing bad players unless A: You know almost for certain they will fold, and B: You plan to show and tilt them later. I used to bluff into these players only when I had tremendous fold equity, and even then I would still get called and beat sometimes. Think about how low your opponents calling requirements are, and ask yourself how much value exists in the technique of lowering it more.

If you never bluff at this level, you'll still make good money. Keep that in mind. I'll go down there and bluff my azz off in the right spots taking stacks in other spots, but it's not that simple a thing. I maximize value when I really have no need to, because I have fun doing it, and don't care if I lose 3 buy ins messing around. My variance goes through the roof, but usually I can leave with a huge stack for my efforts. You're a long way from that still it seems.

[midas06]

At this level, outplaying your opponents is a tricky dangerous game. You're better off making a hand, pushing hard, and letting them call you with worse hands.

Ding ding ding!!!11

Rondavu wins.

[ekillian]

I'm too tired to get detailed. But you're not swimming with the fish like you seem to think. You are a pure fish. Even the perfect mindset where you think you're alright.

[BankItDrew]

First Buy-In: WTF were you thinking not raising and then calling a bet then a re-raise with ace high? Of course you are going to lose this buy-in.

Second Buy-In: Same as above.

Third Buy-In: oh forget it.... I'm not going to read the third.

Practice on the 10nl tables first, maybe lower just to get some hand experience.

[potdragn]

First Buy-In: WTF were you thinking not raising and then calling a bet then a re-raise with ace high? Of course you are going to lose this buy-in.

Second Buy-In: Same as above.

Third Buy-In: oh forget it.... I'm not going to read the third.

Practice on the 10nl tables first, maybe lower just to get some hand experience.

Listen, if you dont have anything constructive to post, dont post it. Anyone can say in hindsight "what a horrible play! You went all in on AK with nothing?" I know i can beat the game set camping and waiting for huge pocket pairs, but obviously, i have a little gamble in me. If it was a terrible bluff, i dont mind criticism on why it was a terrible bluff, but not comments like "Youre just a fish, play more."

Another thing, everyone is flipping out about the A8s call. Like I said, im not calling down everyone with A8 suited. This guy was raising $3-25 every hand, no matter what he had. Do you seriously wait here for AK, AA, KK or QQ to make a stand?

[Fnord]

Yea Payette, be nice to him. He just wants to gamble it up a bit and have some fun playing poker, geeesh!

PotDragn, the real action is at 100NL and up. The players there know how to respect a raise. Don't play 2 card bingo with the kiddie calling stations. Can I let you know next time I'm online?

[potdragn]

Yea Payette, be nice to him. He just wants to gamble it up a bit and have some fun playing poker, geeesh!

PotDragn, the real action is at 100NL and up. The players there know how to respect a raise. Don't play 2 card bingo with the kiddie calling stations. Can I let you know next time I'm online?

and obviously, when i hit 100 and up, i will be set camping and waiting just like you guys....

[Fnord]

and obviously, when i hit 100 and up, i will be set camping and waiting just like you guys....

Nahh.... just keep raising and betting. They fold like a chair.

Take a tip from Lukie, put in the last bet; best when it's all-in, that way they can't play back at you.

[Pelion]

Practice on the 10nl tables first, maybe lower just to get some hand experience.

Listen, if you dont have anything constructive to post, dont post it.

That sounds pretty constructive to me. You asked why you were losing buyins left right and center. You've been told by several experienced players that it is because you are playing some common hands very badly. If you dont like that answer then fine, but you wont fix your game.

[potdragn]

fine whatever, you guys are all leet poker players, im an uber fish, ill stick to the high pocket pairs, thanks for the advice.

[potdragn]

One last thing though, anyone want to compare and contrast the thoughts in this thread and the other one i wrote a couple days previous? Rondavu, your insights are especially interesting, since you posted in both.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#256602

especially this comment

What I used to do at these levels, is a whole different strategy than 50NL+

[Fnord]

you guys are all leet poker players.

I'm an insufferable nit and chronic set farmer. Take my money please!

[Renton]

I agree with potdragn here.

Obviously his play was bad. Obviously he had a nagging suspicion his play was bad.

Which is, obviously, why he posted the hands.

Just saying he played the hand badly doesn't help him, except he knows to play the hand differently next time.

Some people do seem to have a bad habit of going into ego-drive whenever someone posts a hand that was played poorly, and it isn't very constructive.


On the other hand, potdragn, you could be a little more receptive.

[Fnord]

On the other hand, potdragn, you could be a little more receptive.

Or post in Tales, Beginners or HH.

{ moved to beginners circle }

[DaHorror]

I don't think that Rondavu was suggesting that you play in the same manner that he played lowstakes...was just illustrating the point that people will call when you overplay your flopped sets etc. enough to pay you off...and of course it's not that simple.
Hey - you gave overbluffing a shot at low-limts, and it hasn't worked out in these cases...fine...but I would take a step back, quit overbluffing for a bit, and get a straight-up game back inline...it sounds like (and this is not a nitpick, I'm just gathering this from your post) that you might not yet have the patience to play the straigtup low-limits game (set+, AA/KK camping)...but it wouldn't hurt to get that patience first off, and go a little more nuts from there.

In the first hand, your move isn't totally meritless in a tourney - the problem is that a set or straight doesn't slowplay that flop and expect a raise from the guy with position...it reraises the flop...so your call-pushing the flop may have looked like a flush or straight draw trying to chase off his pair...pretty silly call by him, particularly preflop, but either he is a total donk calling station or he just made a good read and gambled that you wouldn't draw out on him...so maybe your move here was wasted on him (1) because of the size of the pot in relation to your stack and in relation to his investment thus far, and (2) he is a calling station. Watch for reads on these people so that you don't bluff them, you push here with the set or straight, or maybe even 2 overs and nut flush draw at worst.

Hand 2: If you wanna call down overaggressive donkey man with this hand, that is your choice, though I don't think it's the A8s call that is bad here - it's your position in the hand with that holding...but lead out the flop...or at least lead out the turn. Min-checkraises are for when you are invincible...most people do not fold to minraises - then his river call was just a cry based on pot size and stack size...he already put in close to that amount on the turn so why not call the river and look you up. The worst part of this hand is that it's the same villain...you've already established that this guy is a maniac and calling station...don't bluff at this particular character any more - push KQ here, or the made flush on the end (he won't believe you have that either)...but don't bluff off your stack to him - he will call you down.

Just trying to provide some feedback on the bluffs in particular - hope it's mildly helpful. Best of luck.

[BankItDrew]

Play on lower levels
Don't play with such bad cards
Don't bluff so much against loose players
Don't get upset when I give you my opinion after you asked me to discuss it with you.
Like my accounting teacher said to me after I came to him for help after I got 20% on my midterm: "I don't even know where to start with you."

Fnord is only being nice to you by saying "it's okay to do this and that when having fun..." because he wants to take your money.

Oh, and don't chase 4 outers on pot sized bets.

[Greedo017]

i've been playing a lot of 25nl 6 max lately, where often, a total nutjob player will show up, and he will raise and push a lot. If someone is raising huge every time preflop and everyone else is just folding to it, of course you don't have to sit around waiting for aa/kk/qq. BUT, if you are going to play a8, pushing is so much better than calling its ridiculous. BUT#2, a8 is not good enough to play for stacks with, even against a ridiculous donkmonster. wait for something better.

[Renton]

of course you don't have to sit around waiting for aa/kk/qq.

Why can't you?

The best way KO a small stakes lag is to wait for one of these hands and walk the dog IMO.

[Greedo017]

well, maybe this isn't the best thread for advice like that.

I think once you're experienced, you can learn to see that if someone is raising 50% of their hands, AND willingly pushing either preflop or on the flop despite resistance or just randomly, it is very +EV to get into pots with these people with anything. Preflop if you're guaranteed heads up, i have no problem pushing a wide range at them, as they rarely will have an ace. Something like A8 i could push sometimes but its at the low end.

So i guess potdragn i change my advice. I think the biggest problem beginning players make is they think they know what they're doing, and try to improve on it. But, most of the time, you don't know what you're doing at all, and by "improving" on your hands and being "tricky" you are really just killing any +EV you ever had and making it harder to identify your problems. Until you are a solid and consistent winning player, you should play poker as ABC-like as is humanly possible. You can certainly beat these games just playing da nuts, do that first, THEN expand your game and try to nudge your winrate up.

[Miffed22001]

i think its rather obvious why you lost 4 buy ins
dont you?