My toughest hand yet

[Irisheyes]

100NL, usually gamb00l table.

Villian is the laggiest guy I've ever seen. I don't have much experience with LAGGs though. He sat down about 4 orbits ago and sunce then had built a $400 stack. Some of that is a hot streak though - set over set ect. He's dominating the table and I'm struggling to read him. I know he's full of shit half the time at least. He likes to splash around. My image is solid TAGG. I have about $130.


I'm SB with AK. Villian is BB. A thinking TAGG limps in EP and it folds around to me.

I raise to $5. My standard raise at this table. Villian calls in BB and the thinking TAGG calls.

Pot is $15.
Flop comes T62r. Usually I c-bet but not this time, I know one of these guys will look me up. I check.

LAGG bets 10. Thinker folds and I think this guy is full of shit so I raise to 25. LAGG calls.

Pot: $65
Turn comes something low that I can't remember. I lead out with $30. He pretty much insta-calls.

Pot: $125
River is again meaningless.

I check. He pushes, and I fold. <-- Edited
How'd I do?

Edit: Changed the river check call into a river check fold which is how I really played the hand. See my post further down the thread.

[finky]

Fold the flop, its a nothing pot so why bother?

If your goung to make like AA/KK, and are willing to call AI on the river, push the turn. Maximise FE and you still have outs.

Looks like a dose of FPS

[Miffed22001]

you have no experience of playing against a lagg and it shows.
Do it with the goods and probably get paid. Do it with air and get stacked.

[Vrax]

Having solid hand against LAG is the way to go. Outlagging him can be painful.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Pot is $15.
Flop comes T62r. Usually I c-bet but not this time, I know one of these guys will look me up. I check.

LAGG bets 10. Thinker folds and I think this guy is full of shit so I raise to 25. LAGG calls.

Pot: $65
Turn comes something low that I can't remember. I lead out with $30. He pretty much insta-calls.

Pot: $125
River is again meaningless.

I check. He pushes, and with my last 45 or whatever I call...


How'd I do?

Horrible.

Instead of one of them looking you up, you instead decide to do it to him with A high and out of position. You tried to push a LAggy player that had position and was running incredibly hot off a hand. I'm fine with the first attempt, but I think the second is hemorrhaging money. Then the crying call with A high? Regardless if it's good or not, I don't like the way you played the hand.

Did you stop and think that you're playing right into the hands of a LAggy player? This is exactly why they play the way they do. People get so frustrated after awhile that they start trying to make plays like you did.

Lay it down and look for a better spot. This isn't it.

[homeboy604]

general rule: dont try and bluff a maniac, it wont work.
just wait for a good flop and let him try and push you out of the pot.

[Alibi]

Your flop c/r was pretty bad. He's getting great odds to call you with whatever shit he has.

[Fnord]

You got pwned bro.

This is also why I don't like 5x openers. The $15 pot on the flop makes it difficult to get away from marginal hands.

I like opening pots for 3x, letting guys like this think they can run me over a bit, play back a litle, then I show them a post-flop hand when I decide to play a big pot.

[Irisheyes]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I need more experience with these types of players before I'll be able to deal with this properly. What alot of people said about beating laggs with hands is true too, next time I have a hand against this guy I'll make sure to run the same line on him.

When I played this hand I actually check folded the river. I never called his push. The reason this hand fucked me up so much though is because after I folded he showed me his Jack high. Thats why I posted it and changed the river to a call to see what people said. In the moment I was so pissed at myself for not going with my read. But I just couldn't call the river, I mean concievably every hand beats me. Grrr..

[Irisheyes]

This is also why I don't like 5x openers. The $15 pot on the flop makes it difficult to get away from marginal hands.

I like opening pots for 3x, letting guys like this think they can run me over a bit, play back a litle, then I show them a post-flop hand when I decide to play a big pot.

Alot of the time 3x openers are impossible for me, I'll get 6 callers. I will do it as a pot building raise in EP with AK if table conditions suit but raiseing to 5 is the best way to iscolate and c-bet. I like to be consistent with my raises understandably.

[Rondavu]

Lagg players are floaters irish. They put you on high cards and float on communities that miss you, making +EV bets with any two when it's likely you missed. If you want to beat a lagg, you obviously have to play off of what they are doing. You beat a lagg by semibluffing draws a little harder, and extending a large length of rope when the turn or river brings it. Act scared of coordinations that hit you when there's a big pile built from semi bluff in the middle. Lagg's can't resist taking stabs at huge pots when you act weak on coordinating boards, so it's good to build a chunk in the middle before you're made. You lose value on the semibluff, but you gain it back through implied odds on the lagg.

Another thing to do, is raise rag connectors into the lagg. Since laggs will float on pairs, you can extract a lot from them by catching good hands with connectors. This sounds like outlagging the lagg, but lagg is more than preflop. Lagg is an aggressive style all around. You can still maintain Tagg status by doing this. You're essentially mimicking the lagg preflop and then picking your battles when you flop strong. You need to catch the lagg by surprise with a nice hit, and he'll be less likely to float on you as much in the future.

There are very simple adjustments to make which will pwn a lagg, but most taggs just outright refuse to make them and allow the lagg to roam around and build stacks off of them.

[underminedsk]

You got pwned bro.

This is also why I don't like 5x openers. The $15 pot on the flop makes it difficult to get away from marginal hands.

I like opening pots for 3x, letting guys like this think they can run me over a bit, play back a litle, then I show them a post-flop hand when I decide to play a big pot.

a 3x opening pfr seems pretty weak to me. I dont see 3 blinds isolating properly, leading to big multiway pots making TPTK or overpairs hard to play. (but you seem to say it works for you, so explain?) Unless a pot goes 4 way or worse for 5 blinds preflop, it's usually managable and I can put in a bet postflop without letting the pot get out of control.

About the hand: let it go on the flop. So you reraise his bluff, which is fine, but then you are still oop for the rest of the hand and look what happened. Either you have to check the turn to him, which is a helluva alot of weakness, or you have to relead, which gets very expensive concidering the nice 60xbb pot youve created with your unimproved AK. Look for a better spot, with position on the lagg to get your money in.

[Irisheyes]

Lagg players are floaters irish. They put you on high cards and float on communities that miss you, making +EV bets with any two when it's likely you missed. If you want to beat a lagg, you obviously have to play off of what they are doing. You beat a lagg by semibluffing draws a little harder, and extending a large length of rope when the turn or river brings it. Act scared of coordinations that hit you when there's a big pile built from semi bluff in the middle. Lagg's can't resist taking stabs at huge pots when you act weak on coordinating boards, so it's good to build a chunk in the middle before you're made. You lose value on the semibluff, but you gain it back through implied odds on the lagg.

Another thing to do, is raise rag connectors into the lagg. Since laggs will float on pairs, you can extract a lot from them by catching good hands with connectors. This sounds like outlagging the lagg, but lagg is more than preflop. Lagg is an aggressive style all around. You can still maintain Tagg status by doing this. You're essentially mimicking the lagg preflop and then picking your battles when you flop strong. You need to catch the lagg by surprise with a nice hit, and he'll be less likely to float on you as much in the future.

There are very simple adjustments to make which will pwn a lagg, but most taggs just outright refuse to make them and allow the lagg to roam around and build stacks off of them.

Good points thanks. I can def. see this guy pushing a flush card river if I check it to him like I did this example. I'll keep this in mind. It's something I'm only having to deal with now but it's going to become more and more prominant as I progress.

[Fnord]

a 3x opening pfr seems pretty weak to me. I dont see 3 blinds isolating properly, leading to big multiway pots making TPTK or overpairs hard to play. (but you seem to say it works for you, so explain?) Unless a pot goes 4 way or worse for 5 blinds preflop, it's usually managable and I can put in a bet postflop without letting the pot get out of control.

Why are you guys so afraid of multi-pots?!?! I guess I raise enough hands that play multi-way well where it's a non-issue for me. I flop big too, and it's really easy for the PFR to get off a bet/3-bet line in this spot against a good 2nd best hand as my initial bet will get little respect. It's also easy to open, get lots of callers and just check/fold when the flop misses you horribly. The biggest problem I have is that I'm more likely to have to laydown without seeing a flop, even with pocket pairs! However, at the levels I play one of the biggest mistakes other players make is not re-raising enough pre-flop, so I may as well be the guy who pops it pre-flop.

[Vrax]

If mediocre or average $50 NL player has crap he will not call even minraise but if he has JTs he will call 12BB raise.

The most beautiful thing of this is raising 88 UTG and reverse trap some "wise sandbagger" that was smoothcalling his AA to pop us on turn. Especially on 8xx board.

Or raising AJs, flop a draw and rep the made hand by potting and bust another setfarmer when it hits or take it down when nit doesnt improve.

More hands in range and smaller raise - and raise is based on our pot equity. Fnord, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lukie]

You got pwned bro.

This is also why I don't like 5x openers. The $15 pot on the flop makes it difficult to get away from marginal hands.

I like opening pots for 3x, letting guys like this think they can run me over a bit, play back a litle, then I show them a post-flop hand when I decide to play a big pot.

he's not opening this pot, he's raising from the SB with an EP limper. Making it 3x here is horrible. I think 5x or a complete is good here.

Irish, I think you played this hand terribly, but I think you already know that.

[Fnord]

More hands in range and smaller raise - and raise is based on our pot equity.

Pot equity has little to do with it. This is a limit concept that applies when lots of money goes into the pot pre-flop and we jab around a little post-flop. In a NLHE game, when the real money comes out it's downright nuclear. A 60/40 edge pre-flop means almost nothing.

The trap I'm setting isn't about hot and cold PokerStove numbers, save that shit for when the real money comes out. It's about putting myself in a profitable situation. Giving myself a good chance of acting last post-flop, sucking in bad players to keep puttting in a little more money out-of-position until their cascading small errors lead to one big one and building enough of a pot where I can play a big pot when I want to.

[Fnord]

I think 5x or a complete is good here.

10x LOL!

[Irisheyes]

Why are you guys so afraid of multi-pots?!?! I guess I raise enough hands that play multi-way well where it's a non-issue for me.

Because holdem players from the moment they start playing are told "If you dont raise your good hands they get crackkked!!"

I will often 3x with AK in EPin some tables due to a discussion I had with you in a different thread about building pots and betting but at this table I cant. There is a few players who will notice discrepancies between my AA raise and my AK raise. Theres also too many calling stations to iscolate with a 3x. Also notice, I'm pretty much repping AA/KK from the get go on this one.

I flop big too, and it's really easy for the PFR to get off a bet/3-bet line in this spot against a good 2nd best hand as my initial bet will get little respect.

How often are you 3 betting AK on the flop?!

It's also easy to open, get lots of callers and just check/fold when the flop misses you horribly.

True, hence what I said above.

[Fnord]

Because holdem players from the moment they start playing are told "If you dont raise your good hands they get crackkked!!"

A week later they're told to bet any flop after raising pre-flop.

I will often 3x with AK in EPin some tables due to a discussion I had with you in a different thread about building pots and betting but at this table I cant. There is a few players who will notice discrepancies between my AA raise and my AK raise. Theres also too many calling stations to iscolate with a 3x. Also notice, I'm pretty much repping AA/KK from the get go on this one.

*shrug* if it works for you. When I play $25-$50NL I will often bump it up to 4x just so I don't look out of place. I just think the 5x and 6x+ openers are kinda silly.

How often are you 3 betting AK on the flop?!

Who raised? Did anyone cold-call?

It's also easy to open, get lots of callers and just check/fold when the flop misses you horribly.

True, hence what I said above.

*shrug* it's not like AKo UTG is a license to print money anyway...

[Irisheyes]

I just think the 5x and 6x+ openers are kinda silly.

Though mathematically they have the same value as 3x's right? It just means that c-bets etc will be proportionally bigger.

How often are you 3 betting AK on the flop?!

Who raised? Did anyone cold-call?!

Set farmers usually. If they don't call...call...call..call - I don't want to play.

[Rondavu]

Just as an aside, I often step onto loose passive tables where every preflop raise is 2xBB, and they're min betting flops. It's like they've been waiting around for you to show up and raise it 4xBB and hammer the good flops so they can chase good money with bad. I always laugh because it makes me think of those parasitic fish that ride the undercarriage of a shark.

[Fnord]

Though mathematically they have the same value as 3x's right? It just means that c-bets etc will be proportionally bigger.

Except that it's not...

[Fnord]

Just as an aside, I often step onto loose passive tables where every preflop raise is 2xBB, and they're min betting flops.

God, I love players who play it like limit. I'll call that crap down with anything and raise with something or air. I'm also discovering the joys of re-raising guys that tip hands pre-flop with bet sizes.