NL 50 6-max, KK with ace on the flop

[Robert]

Yay, I finally moved up to NL50, and its almost easier than NL 25 - the opponents are either weaktight or donktastic. But on to the hand in question:

Opp was a pretty semiaggressive loose donk, the type who often tries to take the pot down with a bet with hands less than toppair when checked to in position. Hows my line on every street? Is the flop and turn checkcall OK against an (semi)aggressive opp who has position on me, or am I wasting chips here?
Nevermind the river minbet, it was a blocking bet that I knew opp was dumb enough not to recognize as weakness and raise me.

Gabe, I would especially like you to comment on this hand, as it was your "KK with an ace" post in the sng forum some time ago that inspired me in this hand (and other KK hands I've played before)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($62.02)
BB ($140.22)
Hero ($72.15)
MP ($66)
Button ($41.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($4.75) A, 4, 8 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $2, BB folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($8.75) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3.

River: ($14.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.5, Button calls $0.50.

Final Pot: $15.75

[Plane]

How about simply betting the flop, something like 2/3rd of the pot? It would take quite a player to try to steal that A-high flop after you raised preflop and bet the flop.
Using your line, what is your plan if he overbets the pot on turn or river?

[LeFou]

I like the flop call, but i'd probably CR the turn

[zenbitz]

If he has no A, then what does c/r the turn acomplish? If he HAS the A, then it screws your pooch.

I check call river as well... if he's bluffing or has an 8, he might bet again!

[mamajo]

River: ($14.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.5, Button calls $0.50.

I still hate this play, buddy list button though.
With your read, your play is good.
Flop is good
turn is ok, I'll c/r this weak bet sometimes, but he could be a donk making a 'value bet', either way raise now or call river its costing you about the same
river I think c/c is better, but if you are certain he will call its ok , if he raises how much are you willing to call?

[aislephive]

Why is a check-raise a profitable play? You get called if your beat and no worse hands will call. Clearly this is a losing proposition.

[mamajo]

Why is a check-raise a profitable play? You get called if your beat and no worse hands will call. Clearly this is a losing proposition.

Ok, you call. What are you doing on the river, block betting, if so how much, or check/call?
What if he pots it?

When villain make a weak turn bet, imo its a winning proposition to take control of the hand.

[aislephive]

Why is a check-raise a profitable play? You get called if your beat and no worse hands will call. Clearly this is a losing proposition.

Ok, you call. What are you doing on the river, block betting, if so how much, or check/call?
What if he pots it?

When villain make a weak turn bet, imo its a winning proposition to take control of the hand.

Ok, let's say you check-raise the turn. If he has an A, he calls, if he was bluffing, he folds. With Villain making puny bets at the pot on third and fourth street I doubt he would all of a sudden fire out big on the river. I would personally give him credit for an Ace and fold the flop, but if you have a good read on somebody and you think he's bluffing then check-calling is the right play.

Check-raising is not the right play because you could be raising with the best hand but you're certainly beat if you get called. If you c/r you maximize how much you lose when you're behind and when you are ahead to profit the least. If he has TT here he certainly folds to a check-raise, but he might keep betting if we check to him or he may pay off a small bet on the river with the two A's on the board making it possible in his eyes that his tens are the best hand. Taking "control" of the hand is not important here in this hand by any means.

[gabe]

i bet about $4 on the river and fold to a raise. i think he his bad enough to call with 2nd pair, but since e probably won't make a pure bluff at that board again AND you are planning on calling a bet, betting and folding to a raise is a good line to take.

[Renton]

if you play a lot of tables drop this hand on the flop. Its a marginal edge at best. IMO.

[dsaxton]

i bet about $4 on the river and fold to a raise. i think he his bad enough to call with 2nd pair, but since e probably won't make a pure bluff at that board again AND you are planning on calling a bet, betting and folding to a raise is a good line to take.

How did you gain this information on his opponent? A non-idiot calls or raises with 3 aces or better, and folds everything else when you bet the river.

[Demiparadigm]

I bet the flop.
I check/call the river.

[mamajo]

I read the history wrong; I thought he bet the flop.
I would have folded to a bet as well if I decided to check.

Now since I thought he bet the flop, my thought process is different. Bet flop, c/c turn, would you play AK this way? If I am villain and you check the river, I am stealing this pot, thats why I said a c/r is in order sometimes.

[Robert]

I bet the flop.
I check/call the river.

What does betting the flop achieve?

[Robert]

i bet about $4 on the river and fold to a raise. i think he his bad enough to call with 2nd pair, but since e probably won't make a pure bluff at that board again AND you are planning on calling a bet, betting and folding to a raise is a good line to take.

How did you gain this information on his opponent? A non-idiot calls or raises with 3 aces or better, and folds everything else when you bet the river.

as I understand the $4 bet is for value against a donk (read on opp: loose semiaggressive donk) - I'll be beting less than 1/3 of the pot, and a donk is certainly capable of calling a weak river bet with less than an A: partly because of the weakness I've shown prior in the hand, and partly because opp is a donk.

[LeFou]

If he has no A, then what does c/r the turn acomplish?

You caught me; I just like checkraising, esp. small bets. It probably sucks. Maybe he'd check the river behind you though. Or push on a bluff? If opp is "dumb enough" not to recognize a 50-cent bet at the river as weaknes, who knows?

[zenbitz]

Ah, the "make a real bet" c/r. I think 3 is real enough. If it was a $1, I would raise it on principal (as opposed to flat calling).

[Robert]

Thx for all the replies!

Im happy about my flop and turn line.
Regarding my river line, yeah I gotta admit that my minbet was pretty retarded (YAY I'm a fish). Next time I'll either be check/calling a reasonable riverbet or bet around $4 for value on the river and fold to a raise (gabes line).

[aislephive]

I actually don't think that min-bet is a bad play against total fish, since they're usually to lazy to stick in a raise, but against any decent player min-betting is an awful play and you're just asking to get raised.

[sejje]

What does betting the flop achieve?

It takes down the pot or gets a raise from villian, most likely.

It gives a huge amount of information on villians hand, at the least.

[gabe]

A non-idiot calls or raises with 3 aces or better, and folds everything else when you bet the river.

no way jose

[Robert]

What does betting the flop achieve?

It takes down the pot or gets a raise from villian, most likely.

It gives a huge amount of information on villians hand, at the least.

I used to think like this, but raising purely for information is mostly a pretty bad idea, there are lines that are more +EV.
This is the thread that tells us why betting the flop is (mostly) a bad idea in this spot: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=21766 . If you havent already read it, then do it, it contains a wealth of information.

My concern in this hand isnt so much my flop line, but rather what I should do on the turn and river.