To call or not to call?

[Lodogg]

I think calling it down is the right decision because if he had the nut flush he would have value betted 4th and 5th street. Pushing all in was a clear sign of either a weak flush or A flush draw going into river. Results to come.


***** Hand History for Game 4238755634 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, May 11, 01:02:58 ET 2006
Table Dare Devil (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: cougario ( $75.38 )
Seat 5: Forty_Deuce ( $123.94 )
Seat 8: caasand ( $54 )
Seat 9: withersrd ( $126.63 )
Seat 10: EMack22 ( $144.03 )
Seat 2: lolo1979 ( $193.10 )
Seat 4: w00py69 ( $95 )
Seat 7: jimfiestus ( $98.50 )
Seat 6: pistolp009 ( $100.50 )
Seat 1: JanBennett ( $100 )
w00py69 posts small blind [$0.50].
Forty_Deuce posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolo1979 [ 4s Ks ]
>You have options at Run 'N Gun Table!.
pistolp009 folds.
jimfiestus folds.
>You have options at Table 96315 Table!.
>You have options at Merry Olaf Table!.
caasand folds.
withersrd calls [$1].
EMack22 folds.
lolo1979 raises [$6].
cougario folds.
>You have options at Table 95575 Table!.
w00py69 folds.
Forty_Deuce folds.
>You have options at Run 'N Gun Table!.
withersrd calls [$5].
>You have options at Merry Olaf Table!.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 5s, Js ]
>You have options at Run 'N Gun Table!.
withersrd checks.
>You have options at Run 'N Gun Table!.
lolo1979 bets [$8].
>You have options at Table 95575 Table!.
withersrd raises [$16].
>You have options at Merry Olaf Table!.
lolo1979 calls [$8].
>You have options at Table 96315 Table!.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
withersrd is all-In.
>You have options at Table 95575 Table!.
>You have options at Run 'N Gun Table!.
?????

[Aceofone]

I call, smells like AJ(w/ As) or set (5's maybe, or weak player with JJ).

[Greedo017]

i call, because you have the fucking second nuts!

and, why are you raising k4s preflop?

[givememyleg]

i call, because you have the fucking second nuts!

and, why are you raising k4s preflop?

^^

[jackvance]

Raising K4s, I don't even limp that and I play pretty Lagg in 6max rofl. But well, your deception worked here - just don't count on it being too profitable on the whole though - and he pushed the turn with a weaker hand. The nut flush would slowplay here almost always, so you should be good.

[dalecooper]

Call and enjoy your profit. He could have a weaker flush, a set, maybe AJ.

[Warpe]

why are you raising k4s preflop?

I don't mind this that much in the CO.

[fasin8ing]

I would call .. But I dont like calling with or playing second best hands in ring... Its pricy .

[givememyleg]

why are you raising k4s preflop?

I don't mind this that much in the CO.

Ya but eh, suited unconnectors. Pretty much all you can hope for is a flush or 2 pair.

[dalecooper]

Ya but eh, suited unconnectors. Pretty much all you can hope for is a flush or 2 pair.

I don't think he's hoping for that at all - I think he's hoping to steal the blinds + the limp, or failing that, to get one caller and take it down after the flop by repping a much better hand. For this purpose you could raise any two from the cutoff or button. The only point in limiting yourself to somewhat good hands is so you don't get a really horrible table image, and also so occasionally you hit a hidden monster and get paid. Like here.

[givememyleg]

I don't think he's hoping for that at all - I think he's hoping to steal the blinds + the limp, or failing that, to get one caller and take it down after the flop by repping a much better hand. For this purpose you could raise any two from the cutoff or button. The only point in limiting yourself to somewhat good hands is so you don't get a really horrible table image, and also so occasionally you hit a hidden monster and get paid. Like here.

I guess I'm just not very up on my LAG game.

It takes a lot of balls to do this, esspecially if that spade doesn't come on the turn. I'm just getting into the groove of ring nl.

[dalecooper]

I guess I'm just not very up on my LAG game.

It takes a lot of balls to do this, esspecially if that spade doesn't come on the turn. I'm just getting into the groove of ring nl.

Well, first of all I will say that I'm much more likely (about 100% more likely) to do this in a short-handed game like 6-max than in full ring. Which is why I play 6-max. But if you go through the hand carefully you can see this is really a lot more straightforward, and a lot less ballsy, than it really looks.

Dealt to lolo1979 [ 4s Ks ]
pistolp009 folds.
jimfiestus folds.
caasand folds.
withersrd calls [$1].
EMack22 folds.
lolo1979 raises [$6].

- He's raising in late position, from the cutoff. His hand is marginal but that's fine, it's not entirely without possibilities. The purpose of raising the cutoff is that he's hoping the button doesn't have a good hand, and that the blinds don't have monsters (QQ+). The limper has already announced that he probably has a small to medium pair, some suited connectors, or something awkward like AJ/AT. So goal #1 is to get all these people to just fold and give the hero the $2.50 in the middle. My only problem with this is that the raise is high enough that you should take the pot uncontested quite a lot of the time to make a profit. I'd prefer to raise to $4.50/$5 here, if I were going to raise.

withersrd calls [$5].

- Oops. Well, that's not so bad. The limper called, and you can guess what he probably has - namely, cards that he can be bet off of.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 5s, Js ]
withersrd checks.
lolo1979 bets [$8].

- Two things: 1. This is a great flop for your hand. King-high and raggedy would be nice, but a pair plus the second nut draw? Sign me up! 2. It's important to realize hero is going to cont. bet this flop almost no matter what is on it. He has one caller and position on that caller - he's going to rep a good hand and try to take it down on the flop. Getting a nice flop only means that it's not so imperative to take it down quick, because now he can win other ways. lolo's bet here is a pretty standard c-bet (roughly 2/3 pot) and he won't mind if the other guy just folds.

withersrd raises [$16].
lolo1979 calls [$8].

- Well he didn't fold. This is not a great result. In a short-handed game I might just push here with a pair + a great draw, and unknown fold equity, but I think in full ring the call is safer. Even if he hit a set hero has a strong draw against it, and he certainly isn't going to fold getting almost 5:1 on his money. He could actually call a much larger re-raise than this since his draw is good and there's money behind.

** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
withersrd is all-In.

- Perfect card, perfect result, easy call. Notice that this hand has completely evolved throughout. Hero was mainly looking to steal pre-flop. Once he got a caller he was looking to steal on the flop. But the hand evolved in a different way and he hit his money card, so now - with a very surprising hand - he's going to probably stack this guy. This is not the expected result when you raise with K4s, but it's sweet icing on a cake made up of blind steals and c-bet steals.

[givememyleg]

What I meant by saying this takes balls is because when you do this move, and the flop comes 4 5 J rather than the 2 spades, I'm left blank with what to do. Essspecially if I cbet and he minraises me, like in this hand.

Thanks for your thorough description on the hand dale, very informative.

[Lodogg]

i call, because you have the fucking second nuts!

and, why are you raising k4s preflop?

Because I have position and 1 limper ahead of me. Why wouldn't you raise here? Position is everything in NL hold'em.

[Lodogg]

I guess I'm just not very up on my LAG game.

It takes a lot of balls to do this, esspecially if that spade doesn't come on the turn. I'm just getting into the groove of ring nl.

Well, first of all I will say that I'm much more likely (about 100% more likely) to do this in a short-handed game like 6-max than in full ring. Which is why I play 6-max. But if you go through the hand carefully you can see this is really a lot more straightforward, and a lot less ballsy, than it really looks.

Dealt to lolo1979 [ 4s Ks ]
pistolp009 folds.
jimfiestus folds.
caasand folds.
withersrd calls [$1].
EMack22 folds.
lolo1979 raises [$6].

- He's raising in late position, from the cutoff. His hand is marginal but that's fine, it's not entirely without possibilities. The purpose of raising the cutoff is that he's hoping the button doesn't have a good hand, and that the blinds don't have monsters (QQ+). The limper has already announced that he probably has a small to medium pair, some suited connectors, or something awkward like AJ/AT. So goal #1 is to get all these people to just fold and give the hero the $2.50 in the middle. My only problem with this is that the raise is high enough that you should take the pot uncontested quite a lot of the time to make a profit. I'd prefer to raise to $4.50/$5 here, if I were going to raise.

withersrd calls [$5].

- Oops. Well, that's not so bad. The limper called, and you can guess what he probably has - namely, cards that he can be bet off of.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 5s, Js ]
withersrd checks.
lolo1979 bets [$8].

- Two things: 1. This is a great flop for your hand. King-high and raggedy would be nice, but a pair plus the second nut draw? Sign me up! 2. It's important to realize hero is going to cont. bet this flop almost no matter what is on it. He has one caller and position on that caller - he's going to rep a good hand and try to take it down on the flop. Getting a nice flop only means that it's not so imperative to take it down quick, because now he can win other ways. lolo's bet here is a pretty standard c-bet (roughly 2/3 pot) and he won't mind if the other guy just folds.

withersrd raises [$16].
lolo1979 calls [$8].

- Well he didn't fold. This is not a great result. In a short-handed game I might just push here with a pair + a great draw, and unknown fold equity, but I think in full ring the call is safer. Even if he hit a set hero has a strong draw against it, and he certainly isn't going to fold getting almost 5:1 on his money. He could actually call a much larger re-raise than this since his draw is good and there's money behind.

** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
withersrd is all-In.

- Perfect card, perfect result, easy call. Notice that this hand has completely evolved throughout. Hero was mainly looking to steal pre-flop. Once he got a caller he was looking to steal on the flop. But the hand evolved in a different way and he hit his money card, so now - with a very surprising hand - he's going to probably stack this guy. This is not the expected result when you raise with K4s, but it's sweet icing on a cake made up of blind steals and c-bet steals.

You read my mind perfectly....I don't think I want you to ever sit at my table.

[Lodogg]

Ok here is the result...Opponent had 8 10 Spades. That is what happens when you call a 6xbb with a marginal hand. This is a hand to raise with, not call a raise OOP.

[jackvance]

On the contrary, floating is a valid strategy! He just had the great misfortune that you were also raising with a marginal hand lol

[dalecooper]

What I meant by saying this takes balls is because when you do this move, and the flop comes 4 5 J rather than the 2 spades, I'm left blank with what to do. Essspecially if I cbet and he minraises me, like in this hand.

If he min-raises, you either dump it right there (probably with some theater - wait a while, type "hmmm" in the chat, etc.), or if you have some small piece and good pot odds like here, perhaps call and hope to pick up two pair or trips on the turn, whilst bearing in mind that you may still be behind even if that happens. Personally I'd just dump it and then type in "I hate AK lol". And who cares if they buy it or not. You have to remember that good poker isn't a pissing match - you don't intend to win EVERY pot you raise. Just most of them.

One additional note - if I had a good read that the guy might do this (check-min-raise) with a marginal hand like KJ, TT, 99, or a flush draw, I'd think about coming back over his head on the flop for a large amount and put him to a decision. It would be a complete bluff of course, but by doing so you're repping AA/KK and hoping he's not so loose that he comes along for the ride. This is very, very read-specific and NOT my default strategy when I'm position-raising with crap.