Flop a 12-outer / Anything wrong here?

[martindcx1e]

limp-happy table. is anything wrong here? i'm seriously starting to think i completely suck at poker. i have had this happen to me for about 9,000 hands now it seems like.

***** Hand History for Game 4282033272 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, May 16, 01:50:41 ET 2006
Table Mi Kaw Noo (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 3: Shark112 ( $47 )
Seat 5: schloppy ( $31.71 )
Seat 6: hankanator1 ( $4.12 )
Seat 7: trick1230 ( $36.26 )
Seat 10: MartinDCX1E ( $25.25 )
Seat 2: papaworm ( $28.40 )
Seat 1: StaticMelody ( $25 )
Seat 4: philtizz33 ( $5 )
Shark112 posts small blind [$0.10].
philtizz33 posts big blind [$0.25].
StaticMelody posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MartinDCX1E [ 4h Th ]
schloppy folds.
hankanator1 calls [$0.25].
trick1230 calls [$0.25].
MartinDCX1E calls [$0.25].
StaticMelody checks.
papaworm calls [$0.25].
Shark112 calls [$0.15].
philtizz33 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, Jd, 7h ]
Shark112 checks.
>You have options at Acid Washed Table!.
philtizz33 checks.
hankanator1 bets [$0.75].
trick1230 calls [$0.75].
>You have options at Dark Horse Table!.
MartinDCX1E calls [$0.75].
StaticMelody folds.
papaworm calls [$0.75].
Shark112 folds.
philtizz33 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
hankanator1 is all-In.
>You have options at Table 98721 Table!.
trick1230 folds.
MartinDCX1E calls [$3.12].
papaworm calls [$3.12].
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
>You have options at Acid Washed Table!.
MartinDCX1E bets [$8].
papaworm calls [$8].
MartinDCX1E shows [ 4h, Th ] a flush, king high.
papaworm shows [ 6h, Jh ] a flush, king high.
hankanator1 doesn't show [ 9c, 9d ] three of a kind, nines.
papaworm wins $15.20 from side pot #1 with a flush, king high with jack kicker.
papaworm wins $13.41 from the main pot with a flush, king high with jack kicker.

[KoRnholio]

Even at a limp-happy table, T4s belongs in the muck Pretty much all it has going for it is it's flush and trips possibilities. Even then the odds of flopping better than 1 pair or a flush/flush draw are tiny.

As played, it looks alright I guess. As long as I can count on calls behind me on the turn (that aren't higher flush draws) I'll call, but a fold at a tougher table wouldn't be horrible.

[givememyleg]

The HH is really messed up.

[martindcx1e]

the hh is wrong. i will change it.

[martindcx1e]

Even at a limp-happy table, T4s belongs in the muck Pretty much all it has going for it is it's flush and trips possibilities. Even then the odds of flopping better than 1 pair or a flush/flush draw are tiny.

i realize what kind of a hand T4s is and i don't play it for top pair. i play it for flops like this one. are you saying you never limp behind limpers at a limp-fest table with Txs?

[dan]

i fold preflop
but as played i raise the flop to $2.25
and then re evaluate the turn.

[martindcx1e]

i fold preflop
but as played i raise the flop to $2.25
and then re evaluate the turn.

as played what do you think of the river?

[dan]

i play the river the same.

[martindcx1e]

i play the river the same.

yay. nothing like reassurance when on a horrid downswing.

[Turska]

Th4h is bad hand. You lose with it. Period.

[givememyleg]

Nothing postflop seems wrong. I'm just suprised you didn't lose stack to a villian push on the river.

[martindcx1e]

Th4h is bad hand. You lose with it. Period.

lol. poker is too easy for you ay?

Nothing postflop seems wrong. I'm just suprised you didn't lose stack to a villian push on the river.

seriously. what the crap is wrong with villain?

[Turska]

It tells you everything you need to know...

T.

[dan]

am i the only one that likes to reraise the flop?

[martindcx1e]

It tells you everything you need to know....

what tells me this? and what do i need to know? i'm lost.

[Turska]

It was in the subject line

Look at Th4h EV stats this tells you...

[Lukie]

You're HH is messed up.

limp-happy table. is anything wrong here? i'm seriously starting to think i completely suck at poker. i have had this happen to me for about 9,000 hands now it seems like.

***** Hand History for Game 4282033272 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, May 16, 01:50:41 ET 2006
Table Mi Kaw Noo (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 3: Shark112 ( $47 )
Seat 5: schloppy ( $31.71 )
Seat 6: hankanator1 ( $4.12 )
Seat 7: trick1230 ( $36.26 )
Seat 10: MartinDCX1E ( $25.25 )
Seat 2: papaworm ( $28.40 )
Seat 1: StaticMelody ( $25 )
Seat 4: philtizz33 ( $5 )
Shark112 posts small blind [$0.10].
philtizz33 posts big blind [$0.25].
StaticMelody posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MartinDCX1E [ 4h Th ]
schloppy folds.
hankanator1 calls [$0.25].
trick1230 calls [$0.25].
MartinDCX1E folds.

There, fixed it.

[finky]

A limp happy table is a reason NOT to call with this hand. It can be dominated by higher flushes, higher tripps (A4 and J10 are common limping hands and the only way you can be sure of your hand is if you 've crippled the deck. Reverse implied odds for these type of hands go way up when everyone is seeing a flop.

[Cocco_Bill]

A limp happy table is a reason NOT to call with this hand. It can be dominated by higher flushes, higher tripps (A4 and J10 are common limping hands and the only way you can be sure of your hand is if you 've crippled the deck. Reverse implied odds for these type of hands go way up when everyone is seeing a flop.

Exactly. We shouldn't even pretend that this is a 12 outer.

[martindcx1e]

would any of you limp 67s in this spot? how about T9s?

[jackvance]

Man you really need to take a little break and rethink your metagame strategy.. this is all so wrong..

[martindcx1e]

Man you really need to take a little break and rethink your metagame strategy.. this is all so wrong..

thanks for the helpful info

what is so wrong? every single thing? what don't you agree with? thanks.

[Halv]

In my limited experience, at limp-happy tables sets and hidden straights are golden. If you hit them, you can pretty much always assume they're good. Flushes are the opposite, if everyone and their grandmother are limping in, be sure that someone has Axs or Kxs.

At these tables I usually value unsuited connectors/gappers more than normally. Not sure if this is a leak though.

[Warpe]

would any of you limp 67s in this spot? how about T9s?

Yes, but it depends. T4s, no.

[pgil]

or you could wait for a decent hand/position and raise pf to punish all of those happy limpers. do this a few times and watch them throw their money at you.

[jackvance]

thanks for the helpful info

what is so wrong? every single thing? what don't you agree with? thanks.

I may be way off, but you are giving the impression that your game has slipped. It's not so much the hand, as the fact that you ask these questions, even though I think it is all pretty obvious, and I think you really are better than this. But like I said, I could be totally off. However, if I'm right, I think if you sit back and outline a solid strategy (what to raise and where, how to play this and that hand) and stick to it for a while, you can get back in there and murder 25NL.

[cardsman1992]

Not to pile on, Martin, but I would never play that hand preflop outside of unraised BB. Tx suited is not a good hand. I might play T9 suited, but only for added str8 possibility. You lose to a higher flush more than you would think. Especially if the fourth card of the suit hits on the river, you are waaaaay dead. I am even starting to feel this way about Kx suited, which I loved to limp late. I have lost a couple of big pots to Ax suited. But, since you played it, I don't mind your line. Maybe more aggression on the flop chases J6 out, but you never know. A lot of these guys stick around with any two sOOted.....

[Pelion]

would any of you limp 67s in this spot? how about T9s?

67s also makes a nut straight

T4s makes 1 card non nut straights.

You cant consider that a 12 outer because you may split with the straight, or lose quite alot to a higher straight but if you are the onlyone with a straight you will win nothing. Your straight outs have very bad reverse implied odds so you have to devalue them ALOT.

Losing to a higher flush sucks but shit happens.

[martindcx1e]

so why don't we just start limping with unsuited connectors since all we care about is the straight possibility and since we don't feel comfortable about making the flush anyways? if you would play 67s or T9s in this spot then you should play 67o or T9o as well.

[martindcx1e]

thanks for the helpful info

what is so wrong? every single thing? what don't you agree with? thanks.

I may be way off, but you are giving the impression that your game has slipped. It's not so much the hand, as the fact that you ask these questions, even though I think it is all pretty obvious, and I think you really are better than this. But like I said, I could be totally off. However, if I'm right, I think if you sit back and outline a solid strategy (what to raise and where, how to play this and that hand) and stick to it for a while, you can get back in there and murder 25NL.

ya jack i am pretty much losing my mind and all confidence in my poker ability and plan on sticking hardcore to ABC Tag for now.

[Warpe]

so why don't we just start limping with unsuited connectors if we don't feel comfortable about making the flush anyways? if you would play 67s or T9s in this spot then you should play 67o or T9o as well.

OESFD > OESD, and if you flop a 4 flush you can bet it. But, you're right, suitedness only adds a few percentage points to your chances of making your hand. I guess it comes down to where you want to draw the line on playing junk. If you start limping all unsuited connectors, what's your next step?...2 and 3 gappers?....any two UTG?

It's called 'junk' for a reason.

[jackvance]

That's what I always do when I lose my confidence.. play tight, no risk poker until I get my "feel" back.

[bair]

i would never ever play this hand =\

[biondino]

Sorry Martin, but it seems you SO want someone to say you played this fine and you just didn't. On a table full of limpers you want one of two things: a strong hand like QQ or AK where you can raise, pick up the dead money, isolate and take down a small-te-medium pot; or a drawing hand which gives you as many options as possible. T4s isn't that, for the reasons outlined above. I would MUCH rather play 45o than T4s - the added hidden straight value adds loads of value to the possibility of making two pair or trips. Your flush is very likely beaten by another person drawing to the same flushflush, or if the board four-flushes, but are you going to be able to lay it down if someone plays back at you?

[Warpe]

...are you going to be able to lay it down if someone plays back at you?

We don't ask ourselves this question often enough, methinks.

[martindcx1e]

lol alright gang i'll fold next time

i'm starting to think unsuited connectors > suited cuz they're easier for me to get away from

[Rondavu]

lol alright gang i'll fold next time

i'm starting to think unsuited connectors > suited cuz they're easier for me to get away from

I hear 72 offsuit is really easy to get away from too. Let's not take the concept too far. What hand is T4s busting on any board against a reasonably solid opponent? I'm sure it will happen once in a great while, but that's not often enough.

[martindcx1e]

lol alright gang i'll fold next time

i'm starting to think unsuited connectors > suited cuz they're easier for me to get away from

I hear 72 offsuit is really easy to get away from too. Let's not take the concept too far. What hand is T4s busting on any board against a reasonably solid opponent? I'm sure it will happen once in a great while, but that's not often enough.

sarcasm alert! wasn't serious.

[STIdrivr]

I may limp with 10 7 suited but they have to at least be able to make a straight, even if you catch 2 pair there is a good chance the board will pair higher than 3's or there woould most likely be many higher 2 pair possiblilities by the river. When you have suited cards it does help, if you catch a pair and a flush draw against someones top pair you are a small favorite.

[martindcx1e]

this is my 500th post. yay.

[andy-akb]

Im mucking this preflop and if Im on the button and its folded to me unless the blinds are incredibly tight Im probably not even going to try to steal the blinds with this hand, it just isnt verys trong at all and puts you in tough spots after the flop when you do hit.

i realize what kind of a hand T4s is and i don't play it for top pair. i play it for flops like this one. are you saying you never limp behind limpers at a limp-fest table with Txs?

I am not limping with Txs anywhere or behind any number of limpers unless that x is 9 or maybe 8

[EricE]

In my limited experience, at limp-happy tables sets and hidden straights are golden. If you hit them, you can pretty much always assume they're good. Flushes are the opposite, if everyone and their grandmother are limping in, be sure that someone has Axs or Kxs.

[gabe]

yea yea yea you arent playing it for a pair, but playing hands like this will put you in tough spots too often to make it worth playing

[Renton]

Don't play suited garbage unless you have button and many many limpers.

Or unless you are a postflop god and know when your 44 with T kicker is good.

[martindcx1e]

lol ok everyone. i understand. i'm not messing with those kinds of hands anymore. this thread got a bunch of attention.

[strawman]

Even at a limp-happy table, T4s belongs in the muck Pretty much all it has going for it is it's flush and trips possibilities. Even then the odds of flopping better than 1 pair or a flush/flush draw are tiny.

i realize what kind of a hand T4s is and i don't play it for top pair. i play it for flops like this one. are you saying you never limp behind limpers at a limp-fest table with Txs?

Don't play it for flops like this one. This is a horrible flop for you since you are drawing to the non-nut flush and straight. You failed to discount your outs here and just saw a lot of potential. Since there was no action preflop you could be looking at someone holding an 8 10 so not only are you already beat but you are only splitting at best if you hit the straight. If you hit your flush you might be setting yourself up to lose your stack.

I like playing hands like 10 4s under two conditions: a) The table is becoming super tight an I am 90% sure I am going to get a cheap flop or b) My raises aren't getting action and I'm not getting much out of my premium hands so it's time to open up. One of my most profitable hands rignt now is Q6s. If you are going to play this type of hand though, ideally the cards should flop within the range or lower. With a 10 4s I'm looking for an ideal flop of 678 rainbow. Decent flops are also 235 or bottom pair with a flush draw.

That being said, my main reason for playing a hand like 10 4s is for deception since I know what I want to flop with a hand like this and by sometimes raising with this there are flops I can take down with a continuation bet. The flop you had is deadly for 104s and you over played it thinking you had more outs than you did.

I'd recommend reading Brunson's section on DBB's if you plan on playing hands like 10 4.

[Lukie]

I wouldn't even complete this hand from the SB in a multiway limped pot.

[andy-akb]

so why don't we just start limping with unsuited connectors since all we care about is the straight possibility and since we don't feel comfortable about making the flush anyways? if you would play 67s or T9s in this spot then you should play 67o or T9o as well.

All you care about isnt the straight possibility the flush will win it for you a lot too, but you have to know when the lower flush is beat, your opponent played very passively, so you couldnt really get away from it, but sometimes you can.

[Renton]

I don't think theres anything wrong with limping behind 3+ limpers on the button with XXs

[martindcx1e]

I don't think theres anything wrong with limping behind 3+ limpers on the button with XXs

yay i have a friend!

[andy-akb]

I don't think theres anything wrong with limping behind 3+ limpers on the button with XXs

How would you have played this postflop?

[Renton]

I don't think theres anything wrong with limping behind 3+ limpers on the button with XXs

How would you have played this postflop?

He didn't have 3+ limpers and he didn't have button.

In the even that those requirements were fulfilled I might call behind here like 50% of the time.

Postflop I would raise the flop big and get stacked on the turn/river.

[LimpinAintEZ]

When i'm running well I will limp in with all kinds of stuff - Obviously with a 10,4 i'm hoping for a monster flop and a 10 high flush draw isn't it - I want something like 10,10,K or preferably A,44 - Of course, at 25NL I find that people lose their stack to me with just a lousy Ace in that situation, so maybe i'm playing the right stake - What I would say is don't ALWAYS do anything - When your running poorly, like you say you are, that is the best time to not get fancy - Play tight poker...even tighter than you want to play - u won't lose much that way on the downswing...It will come back around and then you can limp with more hands....at my games I play almost every pocket pair dealt to me, but when i'm running horrid, i tighten up and don't play everything just because I normally would -

those horrid times suck though - have faith in your game and tighten up, but know that it will come back around and you'll be fine

[renegaderob1]

would any of you limp 67s in this spot? how about T9s?

I would raise these

I don't like unraised pots with marginal/drawing hands...