An analysis of the laydown (or lackthereof)

[Chicago_Kid]

I posted in another thread that I feel that my relatively good w/r could be greatly improved by laying down 1-2 big hands per session. It's these 1-2 hands that, if I could only let them go--or back off, I would probably increase my w/r by 50% or more. These are typically the hands that a little voice in my head tells me I'm likely beat, but I call out of instantaneous stubbornness. Alternatively, some -EV donk makes a poor decision and sucksout. Thoughts on whether these are avoidable---I'm sure the scenarios will look familar:

Classic big pair vs. trips…This guys was very aggressive, but had shown down some marginals. I distinctly remember I was praying for AQ, but mt gut told me something stronger.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 4788210 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 05 18 20:38:43 2006
Table Sunburn (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 10: TheSunRa ( $101.2 )
Seat 1: fearme85 ( $111.6 )
Seat 2: tagross ( $141.1 )
Seat 4: henal10 ( $28.15 )
Seat 5: serve16 ( $21.4 )
Seat 6: hoebo54 ( $165.68 )
Seat 7: elzero ( $44.5 )
Seat 9: Chicago_Kid ( $99 )
elzero posts small blind [$0.5].
Chicago_Kid posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Chicago_Kid [ Ks Kd ]
TheSunRa folds.
fearme85 folds.
tagross raises [$2].
henal10 calls [$2].
serve16 calls [$2].
hoebo54 folds.
elzero calls [$1.5].
Chicago_Kid raises [$10].
tagross calls [$9].
henal10 calls [$9].
serve16 folds.
elzero folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 4s, 6d ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$20].
tagross raises [$40].
henal10 calls [$17.15].
Chicago_Kid raises [$68].
tagross calls [$48].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
** Summary **
tagross shows [ 4c 4h ].
henal10 shows [ 8c 6c ].
Chicago_Kid shows [ Ks Kd ].
tagross shows [ 4c 4h ].
tagross collected [$84.45].
tagross collected [$141.7].
This guy was LAP, so they way he played this, didn’t seem right. Anyway, trips, but not the boat…this one was screaming pocket 2’s to me. But I just melted on the river and decided to push.


***** Pacific Hand History for Game 45384015 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 05 19 21:30:51 2006
Table Ebulum (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 10: Chicago_Kid ( $98.9 )
Seat 1: ykcim ( $103.8 )
Seat 2: bags1511 ( $88.55 )
Seat 3: 100mile ( $50 )
Seat 4: robmc215 ( $94.5 )
Seat 6: DHeise72 ( $93.95 )
Seat 7: TAGS2 ( $129 )
Seat 8: culpamea ( $75.85 )
Chicago_Kid posts small blind [$0.5].
ykcim posts big blind [$1].
100mile posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Chicago_Kid [ 6c 7d ]
bags1511 folds.
100mile checks.
robmc215 folds.
DHeise72 calls [$1].
TAGS2 folds.
culpamea calls [$1].
Chicago_Kid calls [$0.5].
ykcim checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 6h, 2h ]
Chicago_Kid checks.
ykcim checks.
100mile checks.
DHeise72 bets [$3].
culpamea folds.
Chicago_Kid calls [$3].
ykcim raises [$14].
100mile folds.
DHeise72 folds.
Chicago_Kid calls [$11].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 10c ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$16].
ykcim raises [$32].
Chicago_Kid calls [$16].
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Chicago_Kid checks.
ykcim bets [$40].
Chicago_Kid raises [$51.9].
ykcim calls [$11.9].
** Summary **
Chicago_Kid shows [ 6c 7d ].
ykcim shows [ 2c 6d ].
Chicago_Kid shows [ 6c 7d ].
ykcim shows [ 2c 6d ].
ykcim collected [$199.8].


No read on this guy. Very tricky runner runner, flush…did I just get out played, or not bet the turn hard enough, or is this one you can’t get away from? This was one of those reflex calls, probably quasi-tilty on my part. I think I insta-pegged him as one of those river-AI -on-a-scare-card-guys.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 34081541 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 05 19 22:45:56 2006
Table Citrine (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 10: nick4510 ( $97.5 )
Seat 1: jwcb ( $29.5 )
Seat 2: veech ( $74.8 )
Seat 3: Chicago_Kid ( $92.73 )
Seat 4: Sabol36 ( $100 )
Seat 5: mitylu ( $27.5 )
Seat 8: slooga ( $51.1 )
Seat 9: 100mile ( $108.95 )
Chicago_Kid posts small blind [$0.5].
Sabol36 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Chicago_Kid [ Jd Kd ]
mitylu folds.
slooga folds.
100mile folds.
nick4510 raises [$3].
jwcb folds.
veech folds.
Chicago_Kid calls [$2.5].
Sabol36 calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 6c, Js ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$4].
Sabol36 folds.
nick4510 calls [$4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$8].
nick4510 calls [$8].
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$10].
nick4510 raises [$78].
Chicago_Kid calls [$67.73].
** Summary **
nick4510 shows [ 7s 6s ].
Chicago_Kid shows [ Jd Kd ].
nick4510 shows [ 7s 6s ].
nick4510 collected [$184.46].
nick4510 collected [$0.27].

Just stupid???

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 50579838 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 05 08 00:41:10 2006
Table K. Hansotia Symphony (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: StevoBG ( $89 )
Seat 1: hands03 ( $118.5 )
Seat 2: chriso78 ( $12 )
Seat 3: Chicago_Kid ( $89.63 )
Seat 5: Peter462 ( $94.8 )
Seat 6: drtaco14 ( $257.9 )
Seat 7: KDynasty ( $52.85 )
Seat 8: mocktrtl ( $181.35 )
Seat 9: rcoop ( $25.5 )
chriso78 posts small blind [$0.5].
Chicago_Kid posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Chicago_Kid [ Kc Kd ]
Peter462 folds.
drtaco14 calls [$1].
KDynasty raises [$5].
mocktrtl folds.
rcoop folds.
StevoBG folds.
hands03 folds.
chriso78 folds.
Chicago_Kid calls [$4].
drtaco14 calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 10d, Jh, 4h ]
Chicago_Kid checks.
drtaco14 bets [$7].
KDynasty folds.
Chicago_Kid calls [$7].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
Chicago_Kid checks.
drtaco14 bets [$7].
Chicago_Kid raises [$20].
drtaco14 raises [$40].
Chicago_Kid raises [$57.63].
drtaco14 calls [$30.63].
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
** Summary **
Chicago_Kid shows [ Kc Kd ].
drtaco14 shows [ 9c 8c ].
drtaco14 shows [ 9c 8c ].
drtaco14 collected [$180.76].


The min raise on the flop should have told me something, I suppose?

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 3480325 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 05 05 22:28:19 2006
Table Don Diego Specials (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: PkrSnk ( $112.5 )
Seat 1: PAY1 ( $99.45 )
Seat 2: Chicago_Kid ( $77.5 )
Seat 3: FxUxUP ( $83.15 )
Seat 4: nuts106 ( $65.8 )
Seat 5: prf62 ( $97.8 )
Seat 6: Nano22 ( $80.71 )
Seat 7: wilicous ( $174.17 )
Seat 8: siperry ( $99 )
Seat 9: telseg ( $96.97 )
Chicago_Kid posts small blind [$0.5].
FxUxUP posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Chicago_Kid [ Qh Qc ]
nuts106 folds.
prf62 folds.
Nano22 folds.
wilicous calls [$1].
siperry raises [$3].
telseg folds.
PkrSnk folds.
PAY1 calls [$3].
Chicago_Kid raises [$12].
FxUxUP folds.
wilicous folds.
siperry folds.
PAY1 calls [$9.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, Jd, 10s ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$12].
PAY1 raises [$24].
Chicago_Kid calls [$12].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
Chicago_Kid bets [$41].
PAY1 calls [$41].
** Dealing River ** [ 2h ]
** Summary **
PAY1 shows [ Kd 10c ].
Chicago_Kid shows [ Qh Qc ].
PAY1 shows [ Kd 10c ].
PAY1 collected [$156].

This guy probably saved me a little money by not raising the river.

Game #2282747384: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2006/05/06 - 19:28:02 (ET)
Table "Pink" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: Chicago_Kid ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Moma21 ($93.59 in chips)
Seat 3: BRONDBYIF ($76.75 in chips)
Seat 4: paroar ($188.25 in chips)
Seat 5: audrey05 ($21.75 in chips)
Seat 6: TexasNH ($90.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Chr200 ($135.75 in chips)
Seat 8: gaga ($88.75 in chips)
Seat 9: eigenvect ($102.75 in chips)
Seat 10: BNH77 ($193.75 in chips)
audrey05: posts small blind $0.50
TexasNH: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Chicago_Kid [Ad Jh]
Chr200: folds
gaga: folds
eigenvect: folds
BNH77: folds
Chicago_Kid: raises to $4
Moma21: folds
BRONDBYIF: calls $4
paroar: calls $4
audrey05: folds
TexasNH: folds
----- FLOP ----- [Td Jc 5d]
Chicago_Kid: bets $7
BRONDBYIF: calls $7
paroar: folds
----- TURN ----- [Td Jc 5d][9h]
Chicago_Kid: bets $15
BRONDBYIF: calls $15
----- RIVER ----- [Td Jc 5d 9h][3c]
Chicago_Kid: bets $25
BRONDBYIF: calls $25
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Chicago_Kid: shows [Ad Jh] (A Pair of Jacks, Ace high)
BRONDBYIF: shows [Qs Kh] (A Straight, King high)
BRONDBYIF collects $104.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $107.50 Main pot $104.50 Rake $3
Board [Td Jc 5d 9h 3c]
Seat 1: Chicago_Kid showed [Ad Jh] and lost
Seat 2: Moma21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: BRONDBYIF showed [Qs Kh] and won ($104.50) with A Straight, King high
Seat 4: paroar (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: audrey05 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TexasNH (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Chr200 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: gaga folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: eigenvect folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: BNH77 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
****HAND ENDS****

[martindcx1e]

i think most people here will agree that the low stakes NL crowd in general is too passive. keep this in mind!!! i actually make a note on a person these days when i see that they raised the flop with top pair, because i think only a minority of players do this. i get that voice in my head too that i am beat, but i've started listening to it lately and, yes, my w/r has soared since then. also, i try not to build big pots with just 1 pair especially when OOP. this has helped me tremendously as well.

[WhooFleuryScores]

First hand;I reraise alot more to isolate heads up preferably(or even open push if I think none of them have Aces).I probably pop it to $15.

Flop:How much was in the pot?$30 I take it?I prob lead out for closer to $25-$30.When the big stack min-raises you it seems to scream that he either wants a call to pot commit you with his set.I would reraise his raise and see where he stands.

Unfortunalty this is why pairs are dangerous when you have a big stack;it's why I'm always nervous playing AA/KK/QQ/AKs as a big stack and the other big stack calls me.Unfortunalty he made his set and busted a huge nut when you pushed.

Second hand: CR the flop.Or reraise the other clown.

Turn is push city.Get it in while you are ahead and if at worst could still be drawing for some outs.

You tip your hat to both of them and pay off with confidence.

[Chicago_Kid]

i think most people here will agree that the low stakes NL crowd in general is too passive. keep this in mind!!! i actually make a note on a person these days when i see that they raised the flop with top pair, because i think only a minority of players do this. i get that voice in my head too that i am beat, but i've started listening to it lately and, yes, my w/r has soared since then. also, i try not to build big pots with just 1 pair especially when OOP. this has helped me tremendously as well.

So, when you say not to build a pot with large pairs, are you saying to overbet the pot and try to attract 0-1 callers? I'm not disagreeing...just wondering.

I've moved to 6max lately to work on my reads a bit, and I'm making money. Yesterday was a bloody one for the w/r.

[Chicago_Kid]

Unfortunalty this is why pairs are dangerous when you have a big stack;it's why I'm always nervous playing AA/KK/QQ/AKs as a big stack and the other big stack calls me.Unfortunalty he made his set and busted a huge nut when you pushed.

I've started to use this min raise bluff sometimes against players who I know will laydown--sometimes it works, but often people just push (i.e., I woulda nailed em if I had it). In this case, he's gotta have either AA or a set, so I just tilt pushed.

I've started calling more big raises with 22-99 to see if I can catch a set, but only if I'm HU or with one other caller. It has made me some money. However, I hate calling with 22-66 with several callers, b/c I'd fear set over set. Too paranoid?

[martindcx1e]

So, when you say not to build a pot with large pairs, are you saying to overbet the pot and try to attract 0-1 callers? I'm not disagreeing...just wondering.

how would overbetting the pot = not building a big pot?

[Chicago_Kid]

So, when you say not to build a pot with large pairs, are you saying to overbet the pot and try to attract 0-1 callers? I'm not disagreeing...just wondering.

how would overbetting the pot = not building a big pot?

Ok, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I read your comment to mean that I should discourage multiple callers to avoid build a pot. I read this to mean that smaller, inviting bets would be unwise, and that I should isolate or try to win it right there with a big bet. With that said, are you recommending a pot-sized bet here to create a pressure point, or a smaller bet to not create a large pot? Honestly, not sure what you mean here, and my question was in earnest, and in no way dubious.

[martindcx1e]

oh i see now. i meant don't bet huge amounts all the way with just 1 pair especially OOP.

[sunfunbunch]

Hand one you need to reraise MUCH bigger.

If one person calls that small reraise then it makes it THAT much easier for the other players in the pot to call, etc.

The pot was 8 when it was your turn to bet and you only reraised to 10.

With KK AND being out of position I make this ATLEAST to 20. (on occasion I'll even make it 25). A range of 20-25 reraise preflop is good I think.
If they don't call preflop I have no worries, since the villian(s) chose not to suck out at a more expensice price.

Raise it bigger and we'll see if 44, 86 REALLY want to play this hand.

[Werddown]

I posted in another thread that I feel that my relatively good w/r could be greatly improved by laying down 1-2 big hands per session. It's these 1-2 hands that, if I could only let them go--or back off, I would probably increase my w/r by 50% or more. These are typically the hands that a little voice in my head tells me I'm likely beat, but I call out of instantaneous stubbornness. Alternatively, some -EV donk makes a poor decision and sucksout. Thoughts on whether these are avoidable---I'm sure the scenarios will look familar:

This describes my current problem in exact detail. When I see these morons raising and calling big raises with such bad hands it makes it near impossible for me to convince myself that I'm behind with my overpair and I should fold. Of course the times I have the overpair are always the times that they have a monster hand and are betting it so weirdly that I couldn't put them on it even if I wanted to unless I've been paying attention to their style.

[Werddown]

However, I hate calling with 22-66 with several callers, b/c I'd fear set over set. Too paranoid?

Yes, this is too paranoid. You should be MORE inclined to call with multiple people in the pot, because the larger the pot is preflop the better for you when you hit your set (the continuation bets will be larger, too).

The chances of you getting set over setted are so slim that you cant worry about it until it happens... Sometimes you can spot it, sometimes you cant. You can't pass up great odds preflop with a pocket pair in a cash game because you're afraid of getting set over setted.

Against just 1 player they tend to lay down their hand after the c-bet when you show strength back at them with your set (whether you call a big bet or raise). You dont win nearly as much money against a single opponent as you do against multiple. Just make sure you bet your set on the flop if there are straight and flush draws... Thats another advantage... The more people in the pot, the more likely they are to call your flop bet with extremely incorrect odds trying to draw at their flush or straight... making more money for you. (sometimes they hit it and you fill up, and you completely destack them)

[Chicago_Kid]

However, I hate calling with 22-66 with several callers, b/c I'd fear set over set. Too paranoid?

Yes, this is too paranoid.

Good to hear. I often fold these and then feel like pounding the desk when I woulda hit, and then watch 80-100 big bets fly at the felt as two callers hit the flop hard

I guess I need to hear reinforcement that set over set is acceptable risk.

[Chicago_Kid]

I posted in another thread that I feel that my relatively good w/r could be greatly improved by laying down 1-2 big hands per session. It's these 1-2 hands that, if I could only let them go--or back off, I would probably increase my w/r by 50% or more. These are typically the hands that a little voice in my head tells me I'm likely beat, but I call out of instantaneous stubbornness. Alternatively, some -EV donk makes a poor decision and sucksout. Thoughts on whether these are avoidable---I'm sure the scenarios will look familar:

This describes my current problem in exact detail. When I see these morons raising and calling big raises with such bad hands it makes it near impossible for me to convince myself that I'm behind with my overpair and I should fold. Of course the times I have the overpair are always the times that they have a monster hand and are betting it so weirdly that I couldn't put them on it even if I wanted to unless I've been paying attention to their style.

I try to think about how I can put my self in the situation to destack someone even for -EV situations up front. I find it hard to do this. I also think that its funny how AA and KK are your biggest winners but can lead to huge downswings in the near term due to these plays. I suppose if someone calls you with 57o, you have to tip your hat...right Demi?

Game #1928211884: Hold'em NL (£0.25/£0.50) - 2006/04/06 - 00:06:40 (ET)
Table "Husky" Seat 6 is the button.
Seat 1: HarryCays (£28.09 in chips)
Seat 3: Garya0110 sits out
Seat 4: ChicgoKid (£59.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Figment (£42.22 in chips)
Seat 6: DParadigm (£128.81 in chips)
HarryCays: posts small blind £0.25
ChicgoKid: posts big blind £0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to ChicgoKid [Kc As]
Figment: calls £0.50
DParadigm: calls £0.50
HarryCays: calls £0.25
ChicgoKid: raises to £2.50
Figment: calls £2
DParadigm: calls £2
HarryCays: calls £2
----- FLOP ----- [4s 6h Ac]
HarryCays: checks
ChicgoKid: bets £5
Figment: folds
DParadigm: calls £5
HarryCays: folds
----- TURN ----- [4s 6h Ac][3h]
ChicgoKid: bets £8
DParadigm: raises to £16
riddim joins the table at seat #2
ChicgoKid: raises to £52.35 and is all-in
DParadigm: calls £36.35
----- RIVER ----- [4s 6h Ac 3h][2h]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
ChicgoKid: shows [Kc As] (A Pair of Aces, King high)
DParadigm: shows [5h 7d] (A Straight, Seven high)
DParadigm collects £121.70 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot £124.70 Main pot £121.70 Rake £3
Board [4s 6h Ac 3h 2h]
Seat 1: HarryCays (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: ChicgoKid (big blind) showed [Kc As] and lost
Seat 5: Figment folded on the Flop
Seat 6: DParadigm (button) showed [5h 7d] and won (£121.70) with A Straight, Seven high
****HAND ENDS****