One hand for comment - PS 1.20 5 Table SNG

[DWayneBos]

This hand made me mad at myself, in that if I had stayed in I would have won. Now.. I KNOW you can't think that way, but as I look back, I might have had reason/implied odds to stay in? I only needed to put in 50 to win 650 + whatever I could have gotten into the pot if a 4 did fall....

Any Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB (t2095)
UTG (t2815)
UTG+1 (t1145)
Hero (t1400)
MP2 (t1095)
CO (t1010)
Button (t1290)
SB (t2840)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4, 4.
UTG calls t50, 1 fold, Hero calls t50, MP2 calls t50, 1 fold, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 9, 2, K (6 players)
SB bets t50, BB folds, UTG calls t50, Hero calls t50, MP2 raises to t100, Button folds, SB calls t50, UTG calls t50, Hero folds.

Turn: (t650) 4 (3 players)
SB bets t700, UTG folds, MP2 calls t700.

River: (t2050) Q (2 players)
SB bets t300, MP2 calls t245 (All-In).

Final Pot: t2595

Results in white below:
MP2 has 8s Kd (one pair, kings).
SB has 4h 9d (two pair, nines and fours).
Outcome: SB wins t2595.

[givememyleg]

You shouldn't have called the first 50 bet.

Who cares what the turn card was, you folded when you had 2 outs left in the deck... what more can you ask for?

[donkbee]

Given stack sizes, I don't mind calling the initial min bet on the flop if you think that everyone else will call and you'll see another card. However, if you're going to call the first 50, you have to call the second. It makes no sense to call the min bet and then fold to a min raise.

[Scuba Chuck]

Let's just discuss your mistakes on every street.

Preflop: Call is loose/questionable. Certainly, if you can be assured that no one behind will raise, calling is reasonable here. Since this is not a certainty, then calling is questionable. Furthermore, there isn't very many hands in the pot. Calling at this stage is more reasonable from LP to button, after 2 or more limpers.

Flop: Call is bad. Your implied odds are still questionable, and you are not closing the action, but you are close. This loose call is more a sign of a lack of discipline.

Flop call - fold to min-raise: Ok, after a loose preflop play, poor flop call, and now we're being faced with 650 pot, and 13:1 pot odds, and only need to win 1 out of 23 times for this to be profitable we can now see that implied odds now exist to make this call. Of course, this assumes that if we hit one of our two outs, we will at that moment, have the best hand. (If hero does not have the 4s in his hands, we could argue that folding is mathematically correct. )

This fold represents a classic misunderstanding of poker concepts. Two poor/bad VPIPs which are driven by your desire to see a flop/another card, followed up by another bad fold, when finally being presented with the correct odds.

[DickieBets]

Hey,

Could you please explain why playing a pocket pair preflop is a misunderstanding of poker concepts ??

I often will try to play a pocket pair cheaply preflop looking for a set - I'm done with it, however unless I flop a set or possibly an overpair or openended straight draw - although - I'm not standing up to any aggression with the latter two .

Martin

[donkbee]

You can't make a general statement that says, "I limp all low pocket pairs no matter what, and I just fold if someone after me raises it. When the flop comes, if I don't make a set, I'm done." Sure it works a lot of the time, but in tourneys, there's a lot more to consider.

First, what tourney are you playing? 1 table? Multiple tables? Next, what stage is the tourney in? How many people are in it?

How about stack sizes? What is your stack relative to the blinds? What is your stack compared to the other people in the pot?

What is your position? Are you in EP? LP? If you're in EP, you should be less inclined to limp because it could be raised after you limp, maybe forcing you to throw your hand away (depending on the raise and your stack size!). If you're in LP, maybe you can be more sure that you can limp and it won't be raised. How about your position after the flop comes?

With position comes your reads on the table. Is the table pretty passive? Or have a lot of people been raising stuff? When people raise, do a lot of people come along for the ride, or only a couple? How likely is it that you'll make a lot of chips if you happen to flop a set?

How's the math? What odds are you getting? Pot odds? Implied odds?

Should you call? Should you raise? This depends on your table, on how aggressively you like to play, on your position, etc etc etc ...

There's way more to poker than just general rules about how to play certain hands. I listed probably only a fraction of stuff you should be thinking about when you're dealt a pocket pair (or pretty much any hand you want to play, for that matter).

[Staresy]

Preflop: Call is loose/questionable. Certainly, if you can be assured that no one behind will raise, calling is reasonable here. Since this is not a certainty, then calling is questionable. Furthermore, there isn't very many hands in the pot. Calling at this stage is more reasonable from LP to button, after 2 or more limpers.

Sc00b .... You don't think a call here might encourage overcalls from others who might be tempted by the increasingly good odds on offer that improve with every caller whlist also dissuading a raise from a moderate hand that might be tempted to if there were only, say, one limper? I am not saying it is the right play or not here, just debating.
Say, I am sat on the CO or the Btn with summat like ATo here and I see one limper in the pot and then it folds round to me, I might pop a raise out there with a fairly strong hand and very little strength being shown. However, put me on the CO or the Btn and multiple limpers might dissuade me from raising because I doubt I would limit the field sufficiently and again, the more people that call, the more that get encouraged to as well.

Other than that, I agree that the call on the flop was bad and so was the fold.

[Scuba Chuck]

Hey,

Could you please explain why playing a pocket pair preflop is a misunderstanding of poker concepts ??

I often will try to play a pocket pair cheaply preflop looking for a set - I'm done with it, however unless I flop a set or possibly an overpair or openended straight draw - although - I'm not standing up to any aggression with the latter two .

Martin

Martin, please reread my post, as I suspect you misinterpreted what I said. Furthermore, the generality with which you claim to play pocket pairs is just that. Are you limping for set value with high blinds in a 7 handed game? I'm sure you weren't implying that you did, but general statements like this are misconstrued, and the interpretation as to what a high blind is now being questioned.

At some stage the risk/reward/odds ratio, particularly within a tournament structure, has to be strategically questioned. If you did the math as to probabilities of seeing an improvement, against the probabilities of not being raised behind (thus folding), I think that you can begin to reconstruct a new odds ratio of moving forward with a hand like 44 at this level. Furthermore, the fewer hands to the flop, the less your stacking probabilities are. Thus, perhaps the odds ratio at this level limping in this position is 16:1. Just pulling a number out of my ass, as this is not supported by math, but I hope I'm making sense.

[DWayneBos]

Let's just discuss your mistakes on every street.

Good, that is why I posted. I want to learn and get better.

Preflop: Call is loose/questionable. Certainly, if you can be assured that no one behind will raise, calling is reasonable here. Since this is not a certainty, then calling is questionable. Furthermore, there isn't very many hands in the pot. Calling at this stage is more reasonable from LP to button, after 2 or more limpers.

I see what you are saying. I tend to limp low pairs with the hope of seeing a flop cheap. There had been very few pre-flop raises so far at this table. If I had been raised (for more than 3-4BB) I would have folded happily.

Flop: Call is bad. Your implied odds are still questionable, and you are not closing the action, but you are close. This loose call is more a sign of a lack of discipline.

My thought was, again, to try to see the turn cheap. Since so many people are in the pot, I said to myself.. Put in another $50, then let it go. I probably should have let it go, since that was my line pre-flop.. See the flop, if I miss, get out.

Flop call - fold to min-raise: Ok, after a loose preflop play, poor flop call, and now we're being faced with 650 pot, and 13:1 pot odds, and only need to win 1 out of 23 times for this to be profitable we can now see that implied odds now exist to make this call. Of course, this assumes that if we hit one of our two outs, we will at that moment, have the best hand. (If hero does not have the 4s in his hands, we could argue that folding is mathematically correct. )

This fold represents a classic misunderstanding of poker concepts. Two poor/bad VPIPs which are driven by your desire to see a flop/another card, followed up by another bad fold, when finally being presented with the correct odds.

Well, I can't say I totally misunderstand, since after the fact, I questioned the fold enough to post the hand here. As I orignally asked "...I might have had reason/implied odds to stay in?" Seems like your answer is "Yes".

[DickieBets]

I suppose I do think about the things that courtiebee mentioned - I just don't articulate it as well.

I was referring to the earlier stages where 1 big bet is a small percentage of my stack.

I typically play $10.00 STTs

Martin