TT: donked it up

[apunisher]

***** Hand History for Game 4498475396 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 12, 11:47:15 ET 2006
Table Hohenstein (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: JTGaul55 ( $41.64 )
Seat 4: bruce_r ( $54.85 )
Seat 5: tjmoney17 ( $18.89 )
Seat 7: Teme_ ( $74.55 )
Seat 8: TIUNA ( $28.25 )
Seat 10: MonsterDonky ( $54.70 )
Seat 1: AATrain01 ( $51.25 )
Seat 9: dss401 ( $47.25 )
Seat 6: ImAShill ( $51.50 )
Seat 3: Adawg87 ( $49.50 )
TIUNA posts small blind [$0.25].
dss401 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AATrain01 [ Tc Td ]
>You have options at Moon Puppy Table!.
MonsterDonky folds.
lol
AATrain01 raises [$2].
JTGaul55 calls [$2].
Adawg87 folds.
tjmoney17 folds.
ImAShill folds.
TIUNA folds.
dss401 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, Js, Jc ]
AATrain01 bets [$3].
JTGaul55 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
AATrain01 bets [$6].
JTGaul55 calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
>You have options at Moon Puppy Table!.
AATrain01 bets [$10].
JTGaul55 raises [$20].
>You have options at Pomeranian Table!.
AATrain01 calls [$10].

[dalecooper]

Title says it all.

[EricE]

Easy check on the turn. Fold to a bet.

You had a read that made you think he wouldn't have a J in hand or were you just hoping. Betting on hope doesn't work out too well.

[apunisher]

Easy check on the turn. Fold to a bet.

You had a read that made you think he wouldn't have a J in hand or were you just hoping. Betting on hope doesn't work out too well.

77, 88, or 99 dont call flop bet? and wouldn't these hands also bet the turn if checked to? It should probably be added that i cbet alot

[apunisher]

Title says it all.

and this helps me how, if u don't want to give advice fine, but don't be an asshole

[LimpinAintEZ]

I don't mind repping the bigger pair on the flop or the turn - The only glaring mistake i see is calling his river re-raise - You aren't against a short stack here which i'm assuming means he's not an idiot, so 2 cold calls followed by a river raise is telling you that your behind - I have led out the turn and river the same way w/out having the monster, but once its re-raised, especially the river, you just have to let it go...If it makes you feel better you can take all your time like your really thinking about your hand - Go ahead and represent that your making a tough laydown, but do lay it down....also, if you C-bet a lot (which is good, i think) you need to be prepared to not get married to decent PP's...This seems to me like your almost being too stubborn with the 10's here....

[dalecooper]

Wasn't being an asshole - I was joking, and I figured you would get the joke since you posted the thread with that title.

You want help? Check the turn against a tight player. Check the river against a looser player. After you check only call a reasonable bet, 1/2 pot or less, and that's just for pot odds, not because you expect to win, because you shouldn't. As played fold to the river raise, you're definitely behind unless you have a read that says otherwise. If you have such a read, you should mention it when you post this hand history.

Helpful?

[LimpinAintEZ]

77,88 or 99 shouldn't be calling that flop bet - If they are, you better get there money asap - Unless they see you C-bet every single flop and have that good a read, I think only the worst players call you...And they also may call flop, but Turn bet is saying you have at least a big pair (betting turn on the flop after being cold called takes some guts)

[apunisher]

I don't mind repping the bigger pair on the flop or the turn - The only glaring mistake i see is calling his river re-raise - You aren't against a short stack here which i'm assuming means he's not an idiot, so 2 cold calls followed by a river raise is telling you that your behind - I have led out the turn and river the same way w/out having the monster, but once its re-raised, especially the river, you just have to let it go...If it makes you feel better you can take all your time like your really thinking about your hand - Go ahead and represent that your making a tough laydown, but do lay it down....also, if you C-bet a lot (which is good, i think) you need to be prepared to not get married to decent PP's...This seems to me like your almost being too stubborn with the 10's here....

ya just hate folding to minraises on river, feel like im getting too good of price

[dalecooper]

ya just hate folding to minraises on river, feel like im getting too good of price

You're getting about 4:1 on his raise; do you think you're ahead of him 20% of the time or better with his line? Without a read I'd say no - this should be a fold. And frankly it would take a really weird, detailed read for me to think that this line represents anything but a slowplayed jack.

[freechus9]

77, 88, or 99 dont call flop bet? and wouldn't these hands also bet the turn if checked to? It should probably be added that i cbet alot

No, they dont. Would you?

[Fnord]

77, 88, or 99 dont call flop bet? and wouldn't these hands also bet the turn if checked to? It should probably be added that i cbet alot

No, they dont. Would you?

I would call the flop with those hands against some players.

[freechus9]

77, 88, or 99 dont call flop bet? and wouldn't these hands also bet the turn if checked to? It should probably be added that i cbet alot

No, they dont. Would you?

I would call the flop with those hands against some players.

I think that without a read you can't assume you're playing against Fnord and play that way on all streets.

[dalecooper]

I would call the flop with those hands against some players.

Me too. Probably wouldn't call the turn against most players, though.

[Fnord]

I would call the flop with those hands against some players.

Me too. Probably wouldn't call the turn against most players, though.

Me neither, I raise!

[Lukie]

ha!

[dalecooper]

Me too. Probably wouldn't call the turn against most players, though.

Me neither, I raise!

Well, depends on the player, don't it? As with everything reads are paramount. Here's a hand I had against a very, um, interesting player over the weekend:

crazy laggtard - raises to $1
me - calls with TT

flop: A94 rainbow
CL - bets pot
me - calls

turn: blank
CL - bets 3/4 pot
me - raises
CL - calls

river: blank
CL - checks
me - checks

I win pot - crazy laggtard shows 35 suited.

I'm not advocating raising a lot of pots with an ace out there and someone firing away at you multiple times when you only have second pair - but there's a time and a place (and an opponent) for everything. I actually ended up winning more than a buy-in off this player in just three hands where I never had better than second pair; this hand and one where I had Ks9s on a board of Q9xxx were my two big winners against her.

[jackvance]

The key element there is "crazy laggtard". You made a read-dependant play, not one that is generally advised. That doesn't really prove anything besides the fact that reads override standard lines.

I check either the turn or the river there. Might even check the flop. Reason I might not cbet here is that I didn't totally miss the flop (as in, my hand might very well be best, but weaker hands aren't too likely to string along if I value bet), so I can still extract value from weaker hands or bluffs.

[apunisher]

The key element there is "crazy laggtard". Your made a read-dependant play, not one that is generally advised.

I check either the turn or the river there. Might even check the flop. Reason I might not cbet here is that I didn't totally miss the flop (as in, my hand might very well be best, but weaker hands aren't too likely to string along if I value bet), so I can still extract value from weaker hands or bluffs.

so you would check/call? Only bets up to a certain amount of pot?

[Fnord]

Well, depends on the player, don't it?

Not many players have a Jack here often. Some players will laydown better hand to my line. Most players give us a cheap showdown if they continue with a hand weaker than Jx, 77-99 might still be good.

[dalecooper]

The key element there is "crazy laggtard". You made a read-dependant play, not one that is generally advised. That doesn't really prove anything besides the fact that reads override standard lines.

That was the point of the sub-conversation I was having with Fnord, if you read back through it. It wasn't intended to prove anything with respect to this particular hand, on which I advised our hero to probably fold before or on the river, and definitely to check at some point instead of continuing to fire away into an unknown with an unknown hand.

[dalecooper]

Not many players have a Jack here often. Some players will laydown better hand to my line.

I don't think that many better hands are likely to be in the villain's hands here, since there's only three of them (QQ, KK, and AA) that he might even consider folding - everything else is trips or a boat. If he smooth called with QQ+ pre-flop and then calls all the way down only to min-raise the river with an overpair, he's a very unusual player.

If you're only considering the action through the flop, then I agree with you. Although I still think he's unlikely to have a better hand than tens and which doesn't involve a jack. He's pretty likely to have a worse pair or overcards. That being the case, what are you advocating - c-bet flop, check-raise turn? If you get called on a turn raise, do you look to check down or fold the river?

[Fnord]

That being the case, what are you advocating - c-bet flop, check-raise turn? If you get called on a turn raise, do you look to check down or fold the river?

I'm playing the villian's hand. My prior post was confusing, I'll edit it.

I'm a big fan of raising with implied threat and position. Particularly on the turn because they will think about why you just called the flop and can only count on 1 more card to come.

[dalecooper]

I'm playing the villian's hand. My prior post was confusing, I'll edit it.

I'm a big fan of raising with implied threat and position. Particularly on the turn because they will think about why you just called the flop and can only count on 1 more card to come.

Oh. Yes, I raise like a monkey in situations like these when I am the villain. I would almost always do it on the turn, and I would raise the $6 bet to probably $16 - the cheapest possible raise that still seems to threaten, "I'll take all of it if you keep playing." If they flat call and check the river, out comes the second barrel, unless I really think my hand has showdown value, or for whatever reason my target isn't capable of folding to my sophisticated, fancy-ass bluffs. If I have nothing or a low pair I'm definitely raising the turn in this hand.

But looking at the villain's line, I think there's a low chance of a bluff. If he's behind then he floated all the way to the river and made a very feeble attempt at folding out better hands. Considering his stack size, if I were him trying to bluff there, I'd just push. And that's what I'd do with a jack, too. But I'm a better player than he is, obviously.