A quick hand from a recent session

[mxiu]

Villain is 32/11/2.17

My image is 20/9/2.4

Villain has been fairly fishy, and I recently got a string of 5 group 1 hands in a row, which made me seem like a maniac at the time.

PokerStars Game #5580483202: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/07/16 - 17:27:10 (ET)
Table 'Aguilar' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Crocodilo ($80.30 in chips)
Seat 2: jono1972 ($209.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Pace Car ($38.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Majin Legacy ($341.05 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBluffn83 ($397 in chips)
Seat 6: SuperLucky2 ($235.70 in chips)
Seat 7: TheOneSC ($126 in chips)
Seat 8: grayzee1 ($167.70 in chips)
TheOneSC: posts small blind $1
grayzee1: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Majin Legacy [Jh Jc]
Crocodilo: folds
jono1972: folds
Pace Car: folds
Majin Legacy: raises $6 to $8
BigBluffn83: folds
SuperLucky2: folds
TheOneSC: calls $7
millsy101 joins the table at seat #9
grayzee1: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 5s 5h]
TheOneSC: checks
Majin Legacy: bets $12
TheOneSC: calls $12
*** TURN *** [8c 5s 5h] [9c]
TheOneSC: checks
Majin Legacy: bets $25
TheOneSC: raises $81 to $106 and is all-in
Majin Legacy...?

[Renton]

This is tough.

He could have picked up a big draw and be semibluffing. He could also have hit two pair with 89. He could also have a 5.

Its pretty close, and reads are very needed here. Without them I think I fold. Calling is neutral EV here against most peoples ranges.

[Lodogg]

It smells like a set to me.

[mxiu]

This is tough.

He could have picked up a big draw and be semibluffing. He could also have hit two pair with 89. He could also have a 5.

Its pretty close, and reads are very needed here. Without them I think I fold. Calling is neutral EV here against most peoples ranges.

Yeah, for the most part, he seemed fairly fishy, which was why I was leaning toward a call. Neutral EV against most people's ranges you think?

[Miffed22001]

why bet the flop?
You can check here or on the turn when its a seeming rag and call a decent river bet/bet turn.

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

Pot control
Dont bet if you cant stand being raised.

[mxiu]

why bet the flop?
You can check here or on the turn when its a seeming rag and call a decent river bet/bet turn.

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

Well, betting the flop is a must here just in case villain is sitting on overs. Don't want to let them get there for free?

I bet the turn because I can still get a call from lesser hands like 98, draws, etc.

[Miffed22001]

why bet the flop?
You can check here or on the turn when its a seeming rag and call a decent river bet/bet turn.

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

Well, betting the flop is a must here just in case villain is sitting on overs. Don't want to let them get there for free?

I bet the turn because I can still get a call from lesser hands like 98, draws, etc.

think of it this way.
A lot of hands are going to think, meh on the turn and put you on air and push on a board you dont want to see a raise on, unless you have a solid read. TT could be doing this and you cant really call without that read.
If you exercise pot control and check the turn you can call a dcent river bet on almost any card and be happy you played it right without getting in a mess. If its an over and you lose at showdown just know the other 3 outta 4 times you pick off a bluff here mostly on the river from a wide range you are way ahead of.
Played this way we are stacking off with a hand we would have liked to showdown with a lot and won a fair % of the time.
Value vs pot control in this pot and pot control rules but only IMO.
fwiw, id call this push anyway.

You are either way behind or have a hand with 2 outs getting value bet to death on the river where you are going to make a fair amount of money in showing down.

[Renton]

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

I disagree. Leading both streets is highly necessary. You can check the turn against some players, but not against fish. I sometimes check the turn to increase my value on a blank river, considering a lot of weak hands will look me up.

[Renton]

Neutral EV against most people's ranges you think?

At best.

[mxiu]

fwiw?

I understand pot control. I'm not saying checking behind on the turn is a bad play, I just had a reason to bet it. I don't agree with checking the flop however.

[Miffed22001]

I disagree. Leading both streets is highly necessary. You can check the turn against some players, but not against fish. I sometimes check the turn to increase my value on a blank river, considering a lot of weak hands will look me up

We also lose value against 2nd best hands that would showdown against us for a decent price, perhasp even bet into us if we check behind on the turn. Aware players dump a pair or any pp on the turn the way we played it, or play it this way and shove us off a hand we could showdown.
I prefer showing this down against a fish at a good value price than getting in a big messy pot (stacking off) when we could be cooked like the sunday roast :P

[mxiu]

No one explained what fwiw stood for. >_<

While on the topic of not knowing what stuff means, what do all of you mean when you say... "for meta-game purposes"?

[Miffed22001]

fwiw= for what its worth.

[mxiu]

Meta-game?

FYP?

[Miffed22001]

fyp- fixed your post

metagame i think refers to long term purposes or something

[Renton]

fyp- fixed your post

metagame i think refers to long term purposes or something

metagame refers to second and third level thinking and table image.

Second level thinking is "what do they think I have" and third level thinking is "what do they think I think they have."

When you do something "for metagame purposes" you are making a play that may not be correct in the abstract of things, but it might set you up for +EV against this player later. e.g. checking flops with good hands occasionally.

[a500lbgorilla]

metagame is what you do to affect how your opponents react to you in the future.

So if you make a stubborn call down and they see you showdown with 3rd pair, they'll probably shy away from trying to run you over.

[mxiu]

fyp- fixed your post

metagame i think refers to long term purposes or something

metagame refers to second and third level thinking and table image.

Second level thinking is "what do they think I have" and third level thinking is "what do they think I think they have."

When you do something "for metagame purposes" you are making a play that may not be correct in the abstract of things, but it might set you up for +EV against this player later. e.g. checking flops with good hands occasionally.

I had a feeling that's what it meant. Thanks.

[bdawg56kg]

why bet the flop?
You can check here or on the turn when its a seeming rag and call a decent river bet/bet turn.

Sure flop is obv a WA/WB situation in most cases, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't bet. A LOT of worse hands will call us, making a flop bet very +EV. Plus if he has 2 overs we definitely don't want him to see the turn for free.

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

Pot control

I think this is just wrong. How do you think we make money off loose passive calling stations? By checking and practicing pot control?

Dont bet if you cant stand being raised.

How can you be serious? We bet the turn because we are ahead of a large part of his c/c range for the flop, and also to not give a free card to any draws he may have picked up. He check-raises, so now it's time to re-evaluate, and against a lot of bad, predictable opponents, OP's line is 100% optimal, b/c most players will not c/r you on the turn with a bluff or semi-bluff, so we get max value when he has a worst hand and lose the least when he has us beat.

OP: I think I'd fold here, but like Renton said, it's close.

[mxiu]

why bet the flop?
You can check here or on the turn when its a seeming rag and call a decent river bet/bet turn.

Sure flop is obv a WA/WB situation in most cases, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't bet. A LOT of worse hands will call us, making a flop bet very +EV. Plus if he has 2 overs we definitely don't want him to see the turn for free.

Betting both of the first two streets is a mistake here imo.

Pot control

I think this is just wrong. How do you think we make money off loose passive calling stations? By checking and practicing pot control?

Dont bet if you cant stand being raised.

How can you be serious? We bet the turn because we are ahead of a large part of his c/c range for the flop, and also to not give a free card to any draws he may have picked up. He check-raises, so now it's time to re-evaluate, and against a lot of bad, predictable opponents, OP's line is 100% optimal, b/c most players will not c/r you on the turn with a bluff or semi-bluff, so we get max value when he has a worst hand and lose the least when he has us beat.

OP: I think I'd fold here, but like Renton said, it's close.

Is there much of a difference if we had QQ-AA instead of JJ?

[bdawg56kg]

Is there much of a difference if we had QQ-AA instead of JJ?

If you played it exactly the same, then there's almost no difference. But if we are talking about checking either the flop or turn for pot control, or to induce a river bluff or value-bet, then it makes a considerable difference. I would be much more willing to check with AA/KK rather than QQ/JJ because of overcards.