Stupid river raise?

[EricE]

$100 NL

Hand #369909925 at table: Table TH 790
Started: Mon Jul 17 21:30:00 2006

blah(sitting out) is at seat 1 with 115.19
Hero is at seat 2 with 135.15
UTG is at seat 3 with 100.55
UTG+1 is at seat 4 with 12.52
MP1 is at seat 5 with 27.75
MP2 is at seat 6 with 107.57
HJ is at seat 7 with 91.20
CO is at seat 8 with 113.55
Button is at seat 9 with 7.75
SB is at seat 10 with 87.50

Hero posts the large blind 1.00
SB posts the small blind 0.50

Hero: is in BB with :Qc:

Pre-flop:

UTG: Fold
UTG+1: Call 1.00
MP1: Fold
MP2: Call 1.00
HJ: Call 1.00
CO: Call 1.00
Button: Call 1.00
SB: Call 1.00
Hero: Check

Flop: (Pot = $6)

SB: Check
Hero: Check
UTG+1: Check
MP2: Check
HJ: Bet 7.00
CO: Call 7.00
Button: Fold
SB: Fold
Hero: Call 7.00
UTG+1: Fold
MP2: Fold

Turn: :Th: (Pot = $27)

Hero: Check
HJ: Check
CO: Check

River: :Ac: (Pot = $27)

Hero: Check
HJ: Check
CO: Bet 5.00
Hero: Raise 25.00

[AHiltz]

You want to raise it for value, ie something he will call. If you think he'll call that then nh, otherwise no.

[EricE]

Edit: I added pot sizes to OP.

It was a raise to near pot size. At that point I didn't mind a call or a fold. The pot was large enough to want to take it down.

Anyone disagree with the raise? Do we ever consider the posibility of losing to Kxs?

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'd raise it to like 18.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'd raise it to like 18.

[freechus9]

You're scared of the nuts every time? I think you have to raise this, otherwise you're leaving tons on the table.

[AHiltz]

I'm not afraid of Kx here. It will happen, but not often enough.

You want to max value here. This comes down to reads or lack of. Make it something that the opp will either have to call, or call thinking that you're trying to buy the pot.

[Galapogos]

I think it's fair to be scared of an ace high flush draw because people tend to play Axs preflop plenty but rarely Kxs. Even if it wasn't an ace that completed the flush you should still be raising for value here. Flush over flush is pretty rare. If he reraises you then just call but you have to reraise for value here. 18 sounded good.

[EricE]

Flush over flush may be rare but I seem to find them. hehe.
He reraised to $60, I called. He showed KTs. Aww well.

Sometimes I worry that I push marginal situations too far (on the river with little action in the hand) but this doesn't seem to be one of them. Thanks guys.

[freechus9]

Could anyone fold to the reraise here?

[Miffed22001]

make it 15, he probably looks you up.

[IowaSkinsFan]

don't be results oriented, you have the 2nd nuts, if you can't raise that for value idk what u can.

[EricE]

Well, this is a fine example of how you can make really good 2nd best hands with shitty holdings though. There have been times when I experimented with playing any two cards (expecting your post flop skills to win out over holdings). What I found after playing a lot of them is that you will often find yourself in situations like this where you think you are good only to be beaten by a much better holding over all. So many things can make you just good enough to put in lots of money and still lose in NL with hands like these. Kickers, better draw because of kickers, suitedness, etc.

That’s not to say you can’t win big with marginal holdings but I think you end up making 2nd best too often.

Case in point is the CO here. He had the hand locked up (discounting what the HJ had since we don't know what it was) even before a spade fell on the river. <shrug>

[Miffed22001]

hero calls any pushes here, and cries if the Kx gets shown, your playing against lower holdings too often to ever fold here even for a 3bet.

[silu73]

I do not want to hi-jack the thread but I was wondering what you guys think how bad/well the opponent played the nut flush here. At the river opp only bet $5 into a $27 pot. Do you believe that he/she hoped to get a raise against two opponents because with the nut flush on this board I wouldn’t be too scared of anyone hence my quiet disbelief at the “please call/raise” $5 bet.

[Galapogos]

I like it. He probably thought he wasn't the only one chasing here. So he throws out a bet that someone might call if they actually did have something on the flop and didn't really want to let go of (if someone had A9 or 10-9). And it enticed a reraise from a lesser flush which it looked like could also be out there.

[pantherhound]

I pot the flop because it looks strong from BB, carries implied odds, and easily dumpable if played back at taking away your effective odds.

[Miffed22001]

opp bet 5 because he thought no one had anything worth showing down, or else hes a donkey who doesnt now how to get value outta his hands.
Either way, dont fold here.