Were the Implied Odds correct on these 2 calls?

[paulwright]

2 hands here - I would like comments on my 2 calls.

1st hand... I open with a pair and get re-raised by button. With $17 in pot and only $8 further to call and button with $84 behind him - I figured the call gave me the right implied odds assuming he had a big hand and was keen to play for stacks. Correct?

2nd hand... I am table captain and running over opps. Repped a straight on turn with a check-raise and was min 3-bet. My first thought was fold - but looking at implied odds for a further $12 I am drawing to the nut flush on the river. Given the amount in the pot and the amount behind villian - was it correct to call this given implied odds?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($96)
SB ($54.90)
BB ($9.50)
UTG ($65.45)
UTG+1 ($142.05)
MP1 ($85.10)
MP2 ($75.30)
MP3 ($38.35)
Hero ($97)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6, 6.
5 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($25.50) 6, K, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $18, Hero raises to $40, Button raises to $84, Hero calls $44.

Turn: ($193.50) T (2 players)

River: ($193.50) 5 (2 players)

Final Pot: $193.50

Results in white below:
Hero has 6h 6d (three of a kind, sixes).
Button has As Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $193.50.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($93.50)
CO ($166.05)
Button ($97.50)
SB ($68.45)
BB ($96)
UTG ($114.85)
UTG+1 ($9.45)
Hero ($195.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K.
2 folds, Hero raises to $5, 2 folds, Button calls $5, 2 folds.

Flop: ($11.50) 9, 7, T (2 players)
Hero bets $8, Button calls $8.

Turn: ($27.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero raises to $20, Button raises to $32, Hero calls $12.

River: ($91.50) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $106.50

[givememyleg]

The check/min-raise on the turn is hideous in hand 2... Is he even going to pay you off if the river is a ? He gave you a real cheap price on the turn but you re-opened the betting?

[paulwright]

Well, I knew I had made a mistake with my min check raise straight away (it was one of my last hands for the night and alarm bells rang in my head when I did that screaming 'bed time') - but what was with his min 3 bet? [Edit] Does that put him on bottom straight or a J scared of JQ? What a mess I made of this one [/Edit].

My question was really about the implied odds... is the $12 call (given the hideous action before) correct? $72 in pot - one in 5 of hitting flush?

[cardsman1992]

Hand one is standard. With that much behind, play any mid to low PP for set value....

Hand two, I can see repping a straight, but I would have been happier with the cheap ($10) river card.....

[AHiltz]

#1 fine

#2 $10 for river ftw

[Miffed22001]

1 is standard with stack sizes.
2. call, if you push the river an he has the straight do you think hes folding vs your supposed range?! (youre calling 10 for the 70odd stack he has behind.

[paulwright]

Thanks all.

The idea behind the c/r on turn was to rep a straight and try to push him off a set. After this failed (and all agree it was a mistake and I should have called) - I expected him to just call my c/r and let me see the river for the flush. Therefore his min re-raise really did confuse me. But looking at the numbers before deciding what to do, it seemed ok to call.

No doubt I got myself into a pickle up to my final call - but was the $12 call correct?

I cannot put him on a 6 for bottom straight so I had to put him on a J by the river - his river bet seemed strange though. Anyway I knew I had buggered up the hand so it was a fold... I'd fired 3 shots at it - it was clearly time to end the session ...

[relayer]

"1 is standard with stack sizes. "

I thought hero's play in hand 1 was standard, too, but this comment provoked an important concept that I admit I still don't completely understand. Namely, how does stack size influence the play in hand 1? What if villain had a substantially bigger or smaller stack? Or is this comment directed at hero's stack size? If so, again, what would differ if hero's stack was much bigger or smaller...

Sorry for the newb question, but I am trying to get better...

[Miffed22001]

"1 is standard with stack sizes. "

I thought hero's play in hand 1 was standard, too, but this comment provoked an important concept that I admit I still don't completely understand. Namely, how does stack size influence the play in hand 1? What if villain had a substantially bigger or smaller stack? Or is this comment directed at hero's stack size? If so, again, what would differ if hero's stack was much bigger or smaller...

Sorry for the newb question, but I am trying to get better...

if opp has a small stack in hand 1 reraising you wont win enough when you hit/think ou are good to make upo for your loses.
eg if you get reraised here with 66 and assume opp holds AA/KK and you have lts behind, say 200bbs its an easy call considering how much you will win if you hit. In the opposite case if opp only has 40bbs behind and commits a chunk of it before the flop in the same situation you wont win enough long term to make calling a +ev decision.
In short, the more money behind (effective stack sizes) the more you shuld look to take a flop with hands like pps/sc's facing a reraise.

[Rondavu]

I would like to add something here about hand 2. First of all, straight is directly in the villains range on the turn. Your thought process after villain bets should be "Villain is hitting hard enough to pay off a flush correctly on the river for $10 more here, and most likely has a straight which he may pay off max if I hit. Therefore I call."

Reraise was a huge mistake as already stated. Please understand that once you did reraise however, and villain announces a very strong hand with a min 3 bet (Almost definately a straight), it becomes overwhelmingly correct to call for the river, because now the villain is way less likely to put you on a flush if you hit (since you aren't taking a flush draw line anymore), and will almost always pay you off max.

[relayer]

"1 is standard with stack sizes. "

I thought hero's play in hand 1 was standard, too, but this comment provoked an important concept that I admit I still don't completely understand. Namely, how does stack size influence the play in hand 1? What if villain had a substantially bigger or smaller stack? Or is this comment directed at hero's stack size? If so, again, what would differ if hero's stack was much bigger or smaller...

Sorry for the newb question, but I am trying to get better...

if opp has a small stack in hand 1 reraising you wont win enough when you hit/think ou are good to make upo for your loses.
eg if you get reraised here with 66 and assume opp holds AA/KK and you have lts behind, say 200bbs its an easy call considering how much you will win if you hit. In the opposite case if opp only has 40bbs behind and commits a chunk of it before the flop in the same situation you wont win enough long term to make calling a +ev decision.
In short, the more money behind (effective stack sizes) the more you shuld look to take a flop with hands like pps/sc's facing a reraise.

The ole implied odds at work again. Thank you, miffed. I had suspected this, but wanted some better insight.

[Halv]

Reraise was a huge mistake as already stated. Please understand that once you did reraise however, and villain announces a very strong hand with a min 3 bet (Almost definately a straight), it becomes overwhelmingly correct to call for the river, because now the villain is way less likely to put you on a flush if you hit (since you aren't taking a flush draw line anymore), and will almost always pay you off max.

This is very good. Although it seems that OP does indeed know this, it is always nice to restate the old "Don't follow up a mistake with another mistake".

[paulwright]

Great - thanks all. Rondavu yours was the confirmation I was hoping for... given my mistake by check raising I had by then pretty much priced myself in to make the final call because he could not put me on a flush. A fold at that point would have been a "mistake followed by another mistake".

Once it had gone down I thought it was an interesting hand for discussion. Again - thanks all for your thoughts...

[BankItDrew]

Why minraise on a draw OOP? You don't gain anything unless you plan to push any river card.

If your call on the turn is at least 1/5 of your potential profit, then it's a good call. Unless you put him on a set of 7's or 8's - which reduce your outs to 7 which then your call needs to be at least 16% of your potential profit.

[paulwright]

Hey Bank, while I knew it was a blunder as soon as I did it - if I have to answer the question about why - its because I had been dominating the table and all opps had been folding to any aggression from me. I was trying to rep the straight for cheap I guess...
By the time it came to call his min 3-bet I had to put him on a straight - so probably 9 outs - but 7 at worst. The pot odds were there, let alone the implied odds I believe.
Cheers, Wrighty