TPTK OOP - big re-raise - now...?

[paulwright]

Help please... (No reads on opp)

So I hit the flop and bet it OOP. Facing a substantial re-raise - how do I find out where I am at - or do I just lay it down? Calling doesn't tell me anything I think and re-raising will be very expensive.

Looking back now however it seems the only hands I beat are a LAG bluff or pocket pair who thinks I am c-betting. I guess you have to put him on KK or AA but should I really let him push me off the flop I wanted with just one re-raise in position?

Is the price of a re-raise by me worth it to make sure I am beat or just lay down the TPTK? A re-raise here by me will often take the pot down when I make it clear I am serious - but the last thing I want is to play a big pot with a small hand...

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($117.45)
BB ($100.00)
UTG ($118.00)
Hero ($108.40)
MP1 ($97.50)
MP2 ($99.00)
MP3 ($117.50)
CO ($281.90)
Button ($129.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 1 fold, MP2 calls $3.50, 5 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) Q, 2, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP2 raises to $18, Hero ??????

[DaHorror]

Why on earth would 22/QQ reraise you here? Only reason I can see is to determine whether or not you are serious about paying them off.
Only hand I can see raising here is KK KQ/QJ/QT or a weaker pair that wants you and your c-bet to go away, and due to the size of the raise, that's most what it looks like.

Option 1:
Call (for pot control) and lead out the turn solidly unless it hurts you. You will likely fold to further action. But you still have a shot at another club, or unlikely A or Q to keep you going at it.

Option 2:
Reraise (definitely much more expensive) to end the hand there or probably get pot-committed ... this does not seem like such a hot idea.

My thoughts are probably not worth the space they have taken up here, but there you have 'em.

[paulwright]

Thx Horror - I am unsure like you. Seems any solid turn bet after calling flop would be more expensive than a re-raise.

If I re-raise him to $30 on flop with about $70 behind me I dont think I am pot committed.... am I?

[Miffed22001]

its a queen or a two. I think its a queen because nothing else would normally play this fast with a monster.

Saying that it nots a massive pot and you can easily press the fold button and move on.

[paulwright]

Personally I think its KK or maybe AA...

If you put him on a Q and you have AQ - you would fold it? I can see a possible fold if you put him on KK or AA...

Is anyone else folding this with the amount of information we have??

[bair]

you beat about a million hands here...look how weak your flop bet is...people raise these flops with air, a queen, any pocket pair, and a 2. anyways i call and lead the turn. im not buying him raising the most dry board on the planet with 2x, 22, or QQ here. the only thing i think you could possibly be behind is KK and AA, so i might fold to a turn push, but probably not

[Miffed22001]

its dise, ive seen QT get all in here.

[paulwright]

Yeh, the flop bet was weak - but that was intentional. I figure I am so far ahead here I want him to come along for the ride and wouldnt be worried if he reraised. But the size of his huge re-raise did surprise me and stank of KK.

Any more thoughts before I post results? 2 votes call, 1 fold and no one for a re-raise as yet...

[Rondavu]

This is opponent dependant all day long. Getting a read allows you to play these kind of hands OOP successfully.

Against an unknown I fold and move on. Against someone I've been playing against for a while, I usually know what range I'm up against based on a history with the villain. If someone has been reasonable up to this point, and then all of a sudden this overbet jumps out of nowhere, I tend to give the opponent credit.

Remember, if you're putting someone in line who is making unreasonable moves against you, by reraising them or calling them down marginal, it's because they got out of line in the first place. It's all about maintaining a long term edge. Your advantage over this opponent or any other opponent has nothing to do with this one hand.

You don't have to build big pots OOP with bust hands like this against reasonable opponents. Take larger edges against reasonable opponents, and gamble in weird hairy spots against unreasonable opponents.

[paulwright]

Thanks again Rondavu - your thoughts always seem well thought out and insightful - much appreciated.

I take your point, but unfortunately didnt make the fold oop against unkonwn opp. Being Paradise i gave the opp little credit and re-raised to $30 thinking I was probably good and he would fold (which seems standard). He pushed, I was certain now he had KK and let it go. Costly way to find out - but generally it seems the right play at this level and site. He made a comment after I folded that I was pot commited and should have called which confirmed my suspicions.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice and insight.

[relayer]

This is opponent dependant all day long. Getting a read allows you to play these kind of hands OOP successfully.

Against an unknown I fold and move on. Against someone I've been playing against for a while, I usually know what range I'm up against based on a history with the villain. If someone has been reasonable up to this point, and then all of a sudden this overbet jumps out of nowhere, I tend to give the opponent credit.

Remember, if you're putting someone in line who is making unreasonable moves against you, by reraising them or calling them down marginal, it's because they got out of line in the first place. It's all about maintaining a long term edge. Your advantage over this opponent or any other opponent has nothing to do with this one hand.

You don't have to build big pots OOP with bust hands like this against reasonable opponents. Take larger edges against reasonable opponents, and gamble in weird hairy spots against unreasonable opponents.

This is a gem. I'm copying it and putting it on a sticky on my monitor.