if u absolutely must shortstack...

[alias2211]

some background:

when i sit down at a table, i just want to see 5 other full buyins minimum. is that too much to ask? well, apparently it is because at any given table you'll find at least one - probably more - shortstacks. the full buyin table is quite elusive these days. recently i had been bitching about shortstacks to my mentor and he said that i just didn't know how to play optimally against them. and that was because i didn't know how to play optimally AS a shortstack. so yeah, he challenged me to start playing some short stack poker and to start talking strategy w/ other regular shortstackers to really get into the mindset of a typical shortie. i'm about 3 weeks into this fun little project, here are some observations i've made about playing AS shortstack that i hope will help some of you play AGAINST them:

(this was from a recent blog post i made so if you have read that you can disregard)

ur in or ur out

w/ shortstackin, what you're really trying to do is double up FAST. you might as well just play a hand of blackjack first at your favorite poker site at least then you don't have to wait a few orbits to bust or double up. you simply don't have the BBs to be making any plays other than what is mathematically correct. as a short stack you should be trying to either steal the blinds or get all in while at least slightly ahead. you can't wait before a dominating position comes up, you have to take that 55:45 and be happy. i mean you just can't be raising and cbetting w/ 25BB. it just doesn't work like that. you might get loose calls from big stacks who are itching to get you out of their way so a full buyin can sit down instead. so i strongly recommend looking for push/fold opportunities. if you can limp for great odds that is ok i guess, but not really what you're trying to do here.

reloading?

at first i was reloading to table minimum when i started, but my mentor told me to stop doing that. 'when is the last time you have seen a minbuyin top off to minbuyin?' he asked. it's counter intuitive to the style. most people who play shortstack are not properly BR'ed for the stakes they're at much less rolled well enough to actually have enough buyins to top off. so don't bother. seriously what is the difference between doubling up to 40 BB instead of just to 36BB? save those 4 chips for a nice 20% downpayment on a separate 20 BB min buyin.

multitabling

don't do this either. if you have 80BBs, instead of dropping down 20 on 4 separate tables put them all at once and give yourself a chance to slip into deep stack poker, even if accidentally. i dont recommend multitabling for anyone who isn't skilled enough to consistently win at one table anyway. so to do it in a style that is clearly less skill intensive anyway is clearly a no no.

face cards are teh goot

shortstacks play cashgames a lot like people play later rounds of MTTs. i think the 'good' shortstacks tend to value any two paint cards. that is, i'm saying that KQ or KJ off suit is better than A3c, although A3 is still a decent hand. you want to hit a pair that is higher than your opponent's pair: if you have a hand that hits better than a pair, you don't even have to play those well enough to get all in any way (skill is removed from that effort entirely when you're pot committed before the damn flop even drops). so KQ and KJ go WAY up in value, QJ and Q10 are also strong for this style. also, you can maybe squeeze out a little more value on your QJ type hands by getting very slightly better hands like K10 to fold because they don't really want to get involved in a 40BB pot w/ a marginal hand like that when you push a blank flop.

suited connectors suck

alternatively, i think low suited connectors and gappers drop way down in value. even after 5 cards these hands often don't hit well enough to end up on top. even if your 87d hits an 8, your opponents can hit their bottom card of two overs like A10 and still kill you. and again, you don't even care if you hit a flush, since your implied odds suck. you don't need a flush to win you basically need high card or top/mid pair. so just look for multiway cheap pots when you consider playing these and DON"T bring them in for a raise very often at all.

what do i do when i'm ahead?

so often i see a shorty double up and run. seriously, isn't this why you put your money down on the table anyway, to make more money on luck than you really should have? ooh, now you have an extra min buyin that you'll probably lose to a coinflip situation on your next table anyway. with the shortstack style i advocate for a let it ride type of approach. hey, it's only 20BBs. why not ride out a good run of cards into something more like 100-200BBs? then you might actually have a decent bankroll for the stakes you should most likely be playing anyway (i.e. not the level at which you buyin for minimum). also, i have talked to players that like to buyin for $40 on a $200nl, pickup when they hit $120, then drop that on a $3-6 table, double up, and put that $240 down on $5-10. at that point they might want to try to double up once and pickup or let it ride. turn $40 into $500, not $80. then get a clue and a real bankroll at stakes you can afford.

[andy-akb]

NOTE: I abhore shortstacks and hate playing against them and am glad I dont play high enough where ratholers are a big part of the game.

Im not too sure what to think of all of this really, I think youve mixed up a lot of the different kinds of shortstacks and labeled them all the same.

One point Im not very sure about in general is what you said about multitabling. If playing shortstacked poker well is easier than playing deepstack well [and it inarguably is], then wouldnt it also be easier to multitable as a shortstack than a deepstack?

This point really looks past why people shortstack which I dont think you address in your post. They dont all do it simply because they dont have enough to buyin full. Some shortstack because yes, they dont have enough to buy in full or dont want to. Some have a decent roll [not for full buyins though] but arent comfortable playing deepstacked and would much rather play 4 tables of 20bbs than 1 of 80bb and it would be more profitable for them to do so. And then there are some who do it with a roll much larger [both in absolute and in relation to buyins] than either you or I, simply because it is an easy way to make money at the higher stakes.

At the lower stakes we see a couple kinds of shortstacks. There are those that buyin full or for whatever amount and never reload and never adjust their play. And then there are the ones that buy in for the minimum. Of those there are some that leave as soon as they get a big pot and then some who stick around. To properly play against a shortstack you need to know which category they fall into.

The big thing I dont really agree with is your analysis in your last point. You seem to be thinking about why you would shortstack instead of why they are shortstacking. Players do not buyin short simply because of a lack of money, that often has a role in it, but it is more than that. Shortstacks often simply do not want to risk more than 20BBs and just want an easy double up. They are not playing at the table with a chance to build up their chips and play deepstacked with the rest of the players who bought in full.

At the low stakes it is not too often that we see the shortstacks who hit and run, although it does happen and its annoying as fuck. Our shortstacks typically just suck and will stick around until they are broke, regardless of how high they build their stack. As you [no you specifically obviously] go higher in levels you begin to see more "skilled" shortstacks that play 20BB as their main game and leave when they double, or worse, the ratholers who leave when they double and then rebuy for the minimum.

A "good" shortstacker can play pretty damn near optimal simply because they have so few decisions to make and can do so very profitably, just look at these stats of a $2knl shortstacker:

http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pink3zk.jpg

He doesnt do it because he doesnt have the money.

Basically, what I was trying to say without being so longwinded, is that there is not one reason why people shortstack. The different reasons cause people to play differently and without identifying the type of shortstack you are playing against its going to be tough to gauge how to play them.

Your main points about the cards they play [and what you should play as well, make pairs dont play for draws] are accurate. Thats important in knowing how to play against them but you still need to look at their reasoning behind their stacksize before you make judgements too quickly.

[CavemanWins]

The going rule on shortstacks is 'Don't do it' from most FTR people. I just read the section on short stacks from the new NL Holdem and theory book from Sklansky and Miller. They seem to advocate a mathematical advantage to short stacks.

I don't do it, I always try to stay at max stack for the buyin. I never want to give up my ability to "win the most" if I get the Nuts. I have also been molded by so many on FTR posting about ahortstacks.

Is there a fundemental change about to take place???

I think this should really have some discussion. You guys are "molding the minds" of any trollers reading the FTR forums.

[Miffed22001]

shortstacking is wholly dependant imo on how well you would play with either a 200bbs stack, 100bbs or even a 50bbs stack in the game you are rolled for.

[TerryToma]

To add to the discussion:

My mentor taught me the shortstack strategy for bonuswhoring. It was quite low variance and the focus was on TP or overpairs. It becomes -ev to call a shortstack's pfr, as a deepstack's implied odds go down. However many deepstacks with PPs just don't adjust. They still call your PFR when you have an overpair. With only 4 or 5x the pfr behind you are going to come out ahead.

It also becomes easier to slow play. An aggresive deepstack will many times try and steal a pot from a shortstack, and the shortstack can c/r ai with something like TPGK and double up. Aggressive deepstacks manytimes c-bet or steal with a draw, and thus many times the shortstack gets it all in while ahead.

Aggression beyond the occasional c-bet just doesnt pay for a shortstack. They have very little FE. The game becomes even more simple.

As stated earlier, the game is much easier as you never have to think about folding AA/tptk post flop. Its just a matter of how you are going to get AI with an opponent. Rarely do you have to think of advanced things such as flop texture.

Also you can play at higher levels and clear bigger bonuses. I was playing 50NL/100NL and making a small profit + bonus. I cleared a few thousand this way.

Somewhere along the way I read gabes blog and saw some real fun in poker, cracking aces. He just made 400$ with 62o?? How cool! A higher vpip = more fun, right??

If its that easy why dont I just go back to shortstacking??

Well, I have tried a couple of times, but my game has changed so much it doesnt work out to be profitable anymore. I think it pays as a shortstack to become be less aggressive, and I have gotten too aggressive to be profitable as a shortstack.

[TerryToma]

Multiway pots for a shortsack


Thinking back to the few big pots (ie hands where I ended up above 100bb), it was because of Axs or a pp.

1) The value of Axs as a shortstack:

Common scenario.. you limp Axs MP/LP in a 4 way pot. Flop comes 4 to flush. Someone with TP bets pot, you call. Someone with hopefully a smaller draw or even middle pair to call as well as they are getting odds to call. On the turn you now have less than a pot behind making any sort of bet +ev to call on the turn, correct?

Of course flopping 2 pair is a monster to a shortstack, and will likely double you up against AJ, or *gasp* a weak tighty not raising AQ/AK pf. Another reason to limp Axs.

These 2 reasons alone make it possible to not only limp Axs, but also call a small pre-flop raise with Axs when the pot is already multiway. You are more than likely going to double up if you hit.

2) Playing Small PP's multiway

Limp small PP's, only call a raise if pot is already, or is likely to become multiway.

Hitting a set on the flop: Similar situation as Axs. If you hit you are going to get paid. No reason to make the first bet on the flop. Usually just check the PFR, then either get it all in right there or wait till turn. If everyone limped, just check to the Tagg that will most likely try and steal the pot on the flop. Betting a ragged flop is usually a bad idea if you hit your set as a shortstack. But of course it is a good idea to bet an obvious drawy-flop.

Missing the flop: Usually I just played weak/tight and folded to any cbet... however I imagine there are times when it would be correct to C/R AI. For example, If you have relative position on the pfr and everyone else folds to his C-bet. If you have a HUD stats on the PFR that he missed the flop you could c/r AI. Of course I didnt have a HUD when I played shortstack so I didnt do this move much myself.

I would like to hear opionions on this and my last post. I feel it is important for everyone to get inside the head of a shortstacking grinder's mind. I played this way for tens of thousands of hands at 25/50/100NL.

ps. FWIW, this strat in my shortstacking prime worked *best* at pokerroom skins on FR 50NL. But it worked everywhere from party 6max 25/50/100 NL and back to FR. For some reason the I made the switch rather often, and easily between FR and SH as a shortstack. It is much more difficult as a fullstack.

[natdang]

I prefer playing against shorties, and actually look for tables containing a considerable amount of shorties. Reason being, I can buyin max, have them all covered, and they are going to get their chips in against me, oftentimes with a marginal holding.

You can get additional value in situations by bullying/using their short stack to their advantage. For example, you bet out 8 bucks with the goods, if they have 80 behind they're going to fold, but if they have 13 left, you'll probably get that additional 5 from them, especially if they've put in 10 already. Take advantage of their "all or nothing" mentality... by taking it all.

Another advantage is, less to worry about when you do get in behind. I make more profit taking out LOTS of shorties rather than vs. a few bigstacks.

[natdang]

This is a great informative thread. Thanks OP! Maybe consider stickying this?