What to do with JJ river overpair... feeling pretty good.

[Genitruc]

Villain seems like a boring, standard tagg (22/9).

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: joejoe42004 ( $271.93 )
Seat 2: flower6666 ( $265.68 )
Seat 4: GusDawgg ( $185.45 )
Seat 5: VILLAIN ( $200 )
Seat 6: pokerdic ( $21.60 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $239.50 )
joejoe42004 posts small blind [$1].
flower6666 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jd Jc ]
HERO raises [$7].
GusDawgg folds.
VILLAIN calls [$7].
pokerdic folds.
joejoe42004 folds.
flower6666 folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 3d, 6d ]
pot : 15$

HERObets [$12].
VILLAIN calls [$12].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
pot : 49$

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets [$25].
HERO calls [$25].
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]

pot : 99$

HERO ???.

I am torn between value-betting1/2 pot and check-minraising but lean towards value-betting.

[bdawg56kg]

Why did you check the turn? As played, I'd bet full pot here.

[nutsinho]

betting more than 40 seems to have little merit against a solid player

[Genitruc]

I bet the turn to rep missed overs so he would bluff... which is why I like checking the river potentially.

I just think a good player folds a whole lot to second barrels unless they've made unlikely trips or flopped the straight. I can hope to build a pot vs 77-1010 but I'm not too hot about playing a huge pot here. I think I unconsciously slow down when the board is draw heavy and I'm OOP. He also might have diamond overs, which might call a turn bet, but if he's solid it's unlikely.

I prefer to keep the pot small but maybe that's a leak.

[elipsesjeff]

Given villain called your raise preflop, what is your hand range for him? I'm almost always guessing a Pocket Pair here and his calling the flop but he is trying a delayed bluff on the turn. So, IMO, checking to him on the turn isn't that bad of an idea if you think he'll bet out with a hand like 33. I think if villain had a 5 he would be more likely to play it aggressivly on the flop.

The turn card is very good for you, you know beat a slow-played two pair and give him little chance to redraw. Anyone thought about check/raising the turn?

[Robert]

I bet $49 here.

[gabe]

c/r allin might be fun

[euphoricism]

I make it a full $8 (4x instead of 3.5) preflop and then I pot it on flop.

And I like a c/r AI, but its tempting to say only get called when beat -- thing is, thats not true. But it *should* be.

So I think I just bet the turn.

Villain could easily be on FD+2OCs.

[euphoricism]

I think giving villain the chance to check behind on turn is a bad idea.

[Rondavu]

I think giving villain the chance to check behind on turn is a bad idea.

Absolutely. You're playing with fire here by assuming a range of 77-TT.

[Genitruc]

I think giving villain the chance to check behind on turn is a bad idea.

Absolutely. You're playing with fire here by assuming a range of 77-TT.

There's a difference between playing with fire and protecting my stack.

Villain's range after calling the flop is enormous. This range includes hands that have me crushed, complete air and drawing hands.

I have a pair OOP that is probably leading right now. However, I already mentioned that villain seems straightforward and non-donkish. All of the hands that call a flop with two cards to come will now almost certainly fold if I bet, the exception being maybe a super-monster draw (A2/57 diamonds).

If he has a draw, he will likely check behind. The pot will stay small and it will cost me less if he hits.

If he has a hand that I crush (A6 - unlikely obv -, 77-1010) he will likely think that I c-bet and missed and will now try to take the pot down.

There are other possibilities, but my basic thinking here was to get him to build the pot with hands that I crush and keep the pot small if he was drawing so as to not get too deep with a pair.

[Rondavu]

So your logic is that he folds all the hands you're ahead of to your turn bet, but may bet some of them to give you extra value if you check to him.

I think this a good idea against an opponent who bets too often when checked to, and needs to be put in line. With that said, my intention would be to build a pot on the turn by check raising him. At no point in this hand am I trying to keep the pot small, unless my opponent (who's straight forward), tells me I'm behind.

[euphoricism]

I think we border on enticing a "mathematical catastrophe" by checking behind.

[Rondavu]

I think we border on enticing a "mathematical catastrophe" by checking behind.

I think poster presents a unique and interesting scenerio against a certain type of player with a certain range. I kind of have to agree with you here though. I think the key to this hand is that it's more valuable to make villain fold the bad range on the turn (while simultaneously forcing villain to define a hanger), then to start inducing action with a vulnerable hand while inviting free cards.

I think if Hero's hand is a little stronger, this becomes a more acceptable play against this exact villain.

[euphoricism]

To clarify, though I think its clear anyway, I obv meant "by checking the turn and allowing him to check behind"

[Genitruc]

ty Rondavu very interesting posts. Still not sure what line I like with this hand.

[bdawg56kg]

I bet the turn to rep missed overs so he would bluff... which is why I like checking the river potentially.

I just think a good player folds a whole lot to second barrels unless they've made unlikely trips or flopped the straight. I can hope to build a pot vs 77-1010 but I'm not too hot about playing a huge pot here. I think I unconsciously slow down when the board is draw heavy and I'm OOP. He also might have diamond overs, which might call a turn bet, but if he's solid it's unlikely.

I prefer to keep the pot small but maybe that's a leak.

If you think he folds a lot to 2nd barrells then you really should start firing twice with air here. I think you're confusing "solid" and "good" with "weak/tight nit". Seriously, the standard here is to bet the turn because your hand is best a LOT of the time, but it definitely needs protection. If the board is dry, then checking is more acceptable, although I still prefer betting.

If you're range for firing a second barrell is JJ+ and your opponents know this, then good players will easily exploit you. Don't play in fear of monsters!

[Genitruc]

I'm more likely to fire a second barrel with nothing.