KK, reraised pot, 200 bb deep

[Lukie]

Villain is a solid TAgg regular in the 2/4 game, although he is one of the newer regs in the game. We've splashed around a bit with each other tonight but we're not out of line.

Cliff notes: This spot SUCKS. It sucks because, while in THIS particular hand, I felt villain's range had me crushed, we are pretty much never going to be stronger then KK/AA here. Hence, if I fold this, I become very exploitable. This is a problem. Especially if we can't go the distance with AA here.

I suck playing this deep (and it's not even deep, just for me since I'm so used to the 100bb capped online games). This is also a problem.

Discuss?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($396)
SB ($778.30)
Hero ($867.10)
UTG ($826.50)
MP ($460.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K.
UTG raises to $16, 3 folds, Hero raises to $54, UTG calls $38.

Flop: ($110) 6, 5, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $80, UTG raises to $322, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $512

[Pelion]

This is pretty tough. Would he be doing this with something like QQ/JJ some sort of pair to catch a cbet or is he more likely to just call here?

I fold because I dont know where I am and im going to lose alot more when im behind than Ill win when im ahead. You have to see how often he does this though because I dont think youre as far behind his range as you think if he puts the AGG in TAG.

Disclaimer: I only just started playing again so im pretty rusty. Im posting this more so you can criticise me than the other way around.

[arkana]

You should have a wider range than AA/KK here (ie 3-bet more from the BB) or you shouldn't 3-bet this hand so you can get more action from JJ-QQ.

[bdawg56kg]

Yuck. I think a fold is fine here. That's a pretty crappy flop for KK. If you don't think he puts much more money in with a lower PP, then I think checking the flop is good.

[gabe]

i bet more on flop so he wont bluff raise you, good fold though

[Rondavu]

Nice fold. Don't worry about being exploited until is starts happening. Then you'll have douches raising you all the time, and who could hate that? Bring it on.

[arkana]

What do you guys think of UTG's line if he had AA? His flop raise is bigger than potsized, really looks like he wants a fold but maybe thats the intention...

[mcatdog]

Nice fold. Don't worry about being exploited until is starts happening. Then you'll have douches raising you all the time, and who could hate that? Bring it on.

Not really. Decent players won't raise you "all the time" here, but they'll do it as a bluff just enough to make your life miserable and there's not a lot you can do about it, other than be willing to felt AA/KK some of the time here.

[aislephive]

i bet more on flop so he wont bluff raise you, good fold though

I'm not a big fan of betting near pot-sized in reraised pots, I think it's very unnessecary. I also don't really agree with your logic either, that just lets him play perfectly against us. If he is the type to bluff raise in reraised pots a lot then you can profitably push back, and if he does it occasionally but rarely then this is a good fold for sure and you still aren't being exploited. Without a great read either way this is still a good fold this deep. Basically what I'm saying is that we should be able to adjust properly to his play with enough history to make a good decision here. It's not a weak bet Lukie made either, > 3/4 pot.

[gabe]

I'm not a big fan of betting near pot-sized in reraised pots, I think it's very unnessecary. I also don't really agree with your logic either, that just lets him play perfectly against us.

it doesn't let him play perfect because we should not only be playing KK/AA like this. also, once you start battling with TAGs in all these reraised pots you have to work to manipulate them in one way or the other, which sometimes means betting the pot. the betsize isn't about protecting against draws or anything like that, its about making them think that you think they have a different type of hand and all sorts of other nth level thinking type stuff

[Lukie]

You should have a wider range than AA/KK here (ie 3-bet more from the BB) or you shouldn't 3-bet this hand so you can get more action from JJ-QQ.

My range here is much wider then KK/AA. The problem is that we will pretty much never be stronger then KK/AA, meaning if we fold here, we will pretty much always fold to a raise.

[Lukie]

What do you guys think of UTG's line if he had AA? His flop raise is bigger than potsized, really looks like he wants a fold but maybe thats the intention...

no it's not...

[Lukie]

Yuck. I think a fold is fine here. That's a pretty crappy flop for KK. If you don't think he puts much more money in with a lower PP, then I think checking the flop is good.

Meh, I don't really know. I'd like to think that I make this play enough with AK/AQ/suited trash type hands enough that he'd call here with any pair that isn't a set. I'm not sure though. Once I get the mega-raise behind though, I really think a huge part of his range consists of AA/set/2pr/megadraw and stuffs like that.

[gabe]

you should be checking the flop some time, just not very much.

one thing to think about in these situations, but doesn't apply as much to this hand, it can be bad to make 0EV bets against bad players because you wont to stay as deep as you can. if you are 200bb, a 25bb riverbet that has neutral EV is bad, but if stacks are 100bb, its good...

[Lukie]

That kind of goes against the norm which, in situations of very comparable EV, you should choose the more aggressive option for meta-game reasons. I know you want the deep-stacked fish to stay, though.

I predict my post will have approximately no use in practice for anybody that reads it. It is something to think about, though.

[gabe]

its not about whether the fish leaves or not, its about staying as deep as you can

[Lukie]

its not about whether the fish leaves or not, its about staying as deep as you can

That kind of goes against the norm which, in situations of very comparable EV, you should choose the more aggressive option for meta-game reasons. I know you want the deep-stacked fish to stay deep, though.

I predict my post will have approximately no use in practice for anybody that reads it. It is something to think about, though.

[gabe]

um ok

[arkana]

What do you guys think of UTG's line if he had AA? His flop raise is bigger than potsized, really looks like he wants a fold but maybe thats the intention...

no it's not...

54*2 + 80 = 190 (pot on the flop after your bet)

322-80 = 242

Thats bigger than pot??

[arkana]

You should have a wider range than AA/KK here (ie 3-bet more from the BB) or you shouldn't 3-bet this hand so you can get more action from JJ-QQ.

My range here is much wider then KK/AA. The problem is that we will pretty much never be stronger then KK/AA, meaning if we fold here, we will pretty much always fold to a raise.

My point here is that if your range is wider than KK/AA then you are winning the pot on the flop often enough to make up for the times where you get raised and fold.
Edit: if he starts playing back at you more often then obviously you will have to call more often.

[Lukie]

You have to count the amount that he calls before putting in the raise.

Hence, $242 raise into a $270 pot.

[arkana]

You have to count the amount that he calls before putting in the raise.

Hence, $242 raise into a $270 pot.

oops, you are right.

[Lukie]

say again?

[Renton]

at first glance this fold seems absolutely awful. Given the read that he's a good player it seems fine.

You threebet an awful lot though. Are you positive he's not doing this with TT-QQ?

I guess it really depends on your image. If this were Gabe, it seems like a call and check/push a blank turn would be standard, because he's known to threebet light (right?).

Against an unknown theres no way we're getting away here are we?

[gabe]

I guess it really depends on your image. If this were Gabe, it seems like a call and check/push a blank turn would be standard, because he's known to threebet light (right?).

i find that even if im being aggro, people usually dont start trying to bluff me, they just try to trap me more and call down too much.

[Renton]

well raising your flop bet with QQ would be for value and not a bluff

[Lukie]

at first glance this fold seems absolutely awful. Given the read that he's a good player it seems fine.

so basically we should just assume everyone is clueless unless said otherwise? I don't really get the thought process here...

You threebet an awful lot though. Are you positive he's not doing this with TT-QQ?

Of course I'm not positive. I think it is unlikely, though. What does TT-QQ have to gain from this raise? Assume from the responses in this thread that he doesn't think he's going to move me off KK/AA (most won't even try even if it's a situation where it would be profitable to do so, which may not be often because people never fold KK/AA).

I guess it really depends on your image. If this were Gabe, it seems like a call and check/push a blank turn would be standard, because he's known to threebet light (right?).

I've played a bit of 6max with gabe and he isn't nearly as crazy as people make him out to be. It was kinda like Fnord back when I used to play with him, everyone thought he was this maniac..... nope. Gabe has his moments though.

Against an unknown theres no way we're getting away here are we?

not sure... bear in mind this is over 200bb deep...

[Lukie]

well raising your flop bet with QQ would be for value and not a bluff

From his point of view, thinking that I would push KK/AA in my spot and fold everything else wouldn't be too unreasonable. Given that he was a UTG raiser and I hadn't been getting out of line, it's not like I have a massive range here either.

If this is a case, then it's a really shitty bet, even if he is ahead of my range (which he would be, but it's not like he'd have it crushed).

[Lukie]

I guess it really depends on your image. If this were Gabe, it seems like a call and check/push a blank turn would be standard, because he's known to threebet light (right?).

i find that even if im being aggro, people usually dont start trying to bluff me, they just try to trap me more and call down too much.

Or they wait for the nuts to finally play back at you (you in general). Those are the best players to find.

[gabe]

well raising your flop bet with QQ would be for value and not a bluff

people dont really do this though, most try to put another raise in preflop with QQ, and the ones that just call a 3 bet usually arent playing it superfast postflop

[gabe]

I guess it really depends on your image. If this were Gabe, it seems like a call and check/push a blank turn would be standard, because he's known to threebet light (right?).

I've played a bit of 6max with gabe and he isn't nearly as crazy as people make him out to be. It was kinda like Fnord back when I used to play with him, everyone thought he was this maniac..... nope. Gabe has his moments though.

when im 12 tabling 2/4 im alot more ABC than 8 tabling 10/20