Emotional decisions = -EV. How to avoid this kinda crap?

[Jupit3r]

Although it seems after 3k hands at 25NL that I'm doing fairly well, I'm losing wads of cash to hands I know I'm gonna lose. I don't do this every time but some sessions... omg I play like a donkey.

It's something like this: I'm with AK and raise pre-flop, end up with fairly tight opp with A-rag-rag rainbow. I 3/4 pot bet the flop, get called. Turn is blank, I bet and get re-raised... what do I do? WTF!? I call or push or do whatever I shouldn't do because I'm against a set or 2p.

The worst part is I'm doing this while I know at the very moment that I'm gonna lose the hand. It's not like I'm tilting or anything, maybe it's because I'm curious what they have. Anyways, I'm glad I'm gonna hit $1000 BR soon so I can move up to 50NL because one reason might be the stakes aren't high enough.

Anyone else do this? What have you done or what I should do to avoid this? Write sticky notes and attach them onto the monitor? Write something down 100 times? Meditate? Has anyone done anyone done anything like this and noticed it works?

And why the hell do I write so long posts...

[Slash]

I had that problum, but I still do it ocassionally. What I did to help correct this is just keep telling myself im beat, fold and move on. Its all in your head!

[Miffed22001]

remember poker is about making the correct decision, so results are supposed to be irrelevant.
I try to feel good on making really good decisions, eg calling a river bet when i think im good. Folding the river to a large lead etc.

[yorib]

Like everyone else has said, just think before you (re)act.

[biondino]

I'm glad I'm gonna hit $1000 BR soon so I can move up to 50NL because one reason might be the stakes aren't high enough.

So you're going to make the same mistakes, just lose twice as much? But not make as much money from your opponents mistakes because they're better players? I think you need to sort out this leak (and any others you can identify) before you move up because otherwise either your roll or your confidence is likely to be destroyed.

[biondino]

Maybe the above post is unfair - you are obviously aware of this leak and making efforts to sort it out. But it can never be said too strongly that higher stakes ARE MORE DIFFICULT so it's a myth that any aspect of the game becomes easier.

[Jupit3r]

Like everyone else has said, just think before you (re)act.

I understand. The problem isn't that I'm not thinking. I think, come to a conclusion opp has better hand and still keep on firing! It's very strange.

So you're going to make the same mistakes, just lose twice as much? But not make as much money from your opponents mistakes because they're better players? I think you need to sort out this leak (and any others you can identify) before you move up because otherwise either your roll or your confidence is likely to be destroyed.

Althought I have this leak, I feel like I'm beating NL25. BB/100 is above 20 atm (I don't have enough hands to verify it tho). The thing is... one of the possible reasons I'm calling is because of curiosity and there's so little money in the pot that I don't "care" if I lose it. I'm not saying the money doesn't matter... actually I'm dreaming of becoming a pro some day because I love poker (and $$$ too ).

Anyways... I guess it's just a matter of self discipline. I'm 100% positive I'm gonna beat this problem. And speaking about it to you fellow FTR members is definately helping to speed up the process.

Thanks for your replies.

[DubRod]

HEy man, I have had the same problem and although I can go a week without it, on some random session I just seem to call so much knowing im beat...even huge riverbets, and I hate myself for it. I play verry aggressive and it works out great for me (6max player) , but I always think im getting played back at when in realiy most often then not im totally behind in the hand....

[XTR1000]

i know exactly what you mean buddy.

Texas Hold'em $0.50-$1 NL (real money), hand #1,493,741,370
Table Gweru, 14 Jan 2007 1:05 AM ET

Seat 2: Splatt x ($90.70 in chips)
Seat 3: zbojnik ($48.00 in chips)
Seat 6: epic. ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 7: jabba7805 ($55.30 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero [ QD,AD ] ($51.05 in chips)
Seat 9: Ryuhou86 ($17.30 in chips)
Seat 10: FabianTo ($106.00 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Splatt x posts blind ($0.25), zbojnik posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
epic. calls $0.50, jabba7805 folds, Hero bets $2.50, 4 folds, epic. calls $2.

FLOP [board cards JS,QS,4C ]
epic. checks, Hero bets $4, epic. calls $4.

TURN [board cards JS,QS,4C,9S ]
epic. bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50.

RIVER [board cards JS,QS,4C,9S,JD ]
epic. bets $13, Hero calls $13.

SHOWDOWN
epic. shows [ 10S,KS ]
Hero mucks cards [ QD,AD ]
epic. wins $45.75.

After that happened, i put a post it on my monitors saying:

"fold, when you´re beat!"

[Jupit3r]

HEy man, I have had the same problem and although I can go a week without it, on some random session I just seem to call so much knowing im beat...even huge riverbets, and I hate myself for it. I play verry aggressive and it works out great for me (6max player) , but I always think im getting played back at when in realiy most often then not im totally behind in the hand....

That's me exactly! I'm very aggressive too, and now when I think of it I too think they're playing back at me. I never do this against an unknown player.

Tthis thread has already helped. Last session I was able to overcome this problem. I hope it lasts.

[biondino]

Winning aggressive players know when to fold - and the definition of a good aggressive player is that they don't make many calls!

[DubRod]

I just try to tell myself that its not worth the risk when i can pick a better spot. And in reality, calling is only a last resort and when you get to your last resort, you probably in the gutter already.

Now let me print that and stick it to my monitor!

[El_Bandito]

Forget who it was that posted this piece of advice, but it's really helped for me: take your hand off the mouse!

I've found that if I'm sitting on TPTK, and especially if it's a pretty hand like AKs, it's sooo easy to insta-call a re-raise if your finger is on the button. I also remind myself of the tons of times I've been able to fold this hand and then flopped a set 2 hands later to make it all back.

[thnwkd]

I think almost everyone has had this problem. And something i've come to realize is that no matter how good you think you are or how many books you've read or how many post you have etc etc. the most important thing is discipline. without it we're all just fish.

[aokrongly]

...

[martindcx1e]

take up your entire time bank to think about the situation, and play 100 tables so you can easily forget about having to fold your oh-so-pretty hand.

[Drewbie]

The worst part is I'm doing this while I know at the very moment that I'm gonna lose the hand. It's not like I'm tilting or anything, maybe it's because I'm curious what they have.

AKA Gus Hansen Syndrome

[Rondavu]

Hands are stories. See the following....

Hero Button AcKh

Villain limps UTG+2. Hero raises 4xBB. Villain Calls...(pot 9xBB)

Hero thinks "What kind of hands might this person limp and call from that position? How do they play? Well, I've been playing with him for a couple hours. He limp calls a lot of hands like pocket pairs, QJ, A8, KT, Axs. He's fairly loose passive passive all around, but not terrible. Also, I've seen him lose a couple medium pots with top pair or second pair, but both times passively. He check called all the way. One time he check called the flop, hit a two pair on the turn, and check min-raised. Then he put out a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. Another time he checked behind in position with a flush draw heads up, and hit it on the turn. His opponent bet the turn with top pair, he raised, got called, and then he made a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. One time he min raised KK preflop, but then gave away his strength with a big flop raise when bet into, then showed when his opponent folded."

Flop Tc Kd 5s

Villain checks. Hero bets 7xBB. Villain calls. (pot 23xBB)

Turn 2h

Villain checks. Hero Bets 18xBB. Villain raises to 36xBB. Hero folds, because hero is almost never ahead against this opponent on this board with this action.

Hero thinks "Villain calls down with top pair or second pair any kicker if he doesn't fold those hands, and calls down with a straight draw. He doesn't semi bluff. Villain isn't likely to have KK, because he would raise that preflop. He could have TT or 55. He most likely doesn't have 22. He would probably check raise KT on the flop. Villain has exactly TT or 55."

The moral of the story is you have no time to be emotional if you're too busy going through the correct thought processes, and making logical decisions.

[salsa4ever]

Hands are stories. See the following....

Hero Button AcKh

Villain limps UTG+2. Hero raises 4xBB. Villain Calls...(pot 9xBB)

Hero thinks "What kind of hands might this person limp and call from that position? How do they play? Well, I've been playing with him for a couple hours. He limp calls a lot of hands like pocket pairs, QJ, A8, KT, Axs. He's fairly loose passive passive all around, but not terrible. Also, I've seen him lose a couple medium pots with top pair or second pair, but both times passively. He check called all the way. One time he check called the flop, hit a two pair on the turn, and check min-raised. Then he put out a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. Another time he checked behind in position with a flush draw heads up, and hit it on the turn. His opponent bet the turn with top pair, he raised, got called, and then he made a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. One time he min raised KK preflop, but then gave away his strength with a big flop raise when bet into, then showed when his opponent folded."

Flop Tc Kd 5s

Villain checks. Hero bets 7xBB. Villain calls. (pot 23xBB)

Turn 2h

Villain checks. Hero Bets 18xBB. Villain raises to 36xBB. Hero folds, because hero is almost never ahead against this opponent on this board with this action.

Hero thinks "Villain calls down with top pair or second pair any kicker if he doesn't fold those hands, and calls down with a straight draw. He doesn't semi bluff. Villain isn't likely to have KK, because he would raise that preflop. He could have TT or 55. He most likely doesn't have 22. He would probably check raise KT on the flop. Villain has exactly TT or 55."

The moral of the story is you have no time to be emotional if you're too busy going through the correct thought processes, and making logical decisions.

this is true. And if you're this observant you can make these kinds of laydowns. But sometimes you don't have the information

I mean, what if villain is a good TaGG here? How do you know he doesn't semi bluff? What prevents him from having QJ and making a sophisticated and pretty cheap semi bluff? Seems like a good move to me. And if you've been cont betting a lot he could be testing you out with JJ or something. People tend to overestimate their ability to "know" when they're beat. Players bluff. I'm pretty damn conservative but I bluff too and I've pulled the flop call turn minraise against thinking players time and time again. In the end, all you can do is go for the odds.

Against different players it might be correct to call and see what he does on the river, or fold... what if you knew that 88-TT was in his raising and the flop was 8TK instead? He might still show a set, but sometimes you just have to say I think I'm beat but I still have to call. Or even "I'm probably beat but pot odds dictate I call". Especially if you have TPTK or something against what appears to be a 2-pair you still have outs even if you're beaten so it doesn't need to be a bluff or a stupid raise very often at all to make a profitable call.

Rondavu is of course right in that you have to use all the available information to make the decision and think it all through. So the emotional instacall is a big no-no

[salsa4ever]

Hands are stories. See the following....

Hero Button AcKh

Villain limps UTG+2. Hero raises 4xBB. Villain Calls...(pot 9xBB)

Hero thinks "What kind of hands might this person limp and call from that position? How do they play? Well, I've been playing with him for a couple hours. He limp calls a lot of hands like pocket pairs, QJ, A8, KT, Axs. He's fairly loose passive passive all around, but not terrible. Also, I've seen him lose a couple medium pots with top pair or second pair, but both times passively. He check called all the way. One time he check called the flop, hit a two pair on the turn, and check min-raised. Then he put out a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. Another time he checked behind in position with a flush draw heads up, and hit it on the turn. His opponent bet the turn with top pair, he raised, got called, and then he made a reasonable value bet on the end which was called. One time he min raised KK preflop, but then gave away his strength with a big flop raise when bet into, then showed when his opponent folded."

Flop Tc Kd 5s

Villain checks. Hero bets 7xBB. Villain calls. (pot 23xBB)

Turn 2h

Villain checks. Hero Bets 18xBB. Villain raises to 36xBB. Hero folds, because hero is almost never ahead against this opponent on this board with this action.

Hero thinks "Villain calls down with top pair or second pair any kicker if he doesn't fold those hands, and calls down with a straight draw. He doesn't semi bluff. Villain isn't likely to have KK, because he would raise that preflop. He could have TT or 55. He most likely doesn't have 22. He would probably check raise KT on the flop. Villain has exactly TT or 55."

The moral of the story is you have no time to be emotional if you're too busy going through the correct thought processes, and making logical decisions.

this is true. And if you're this observant you can make these kinds of laydowns. But sometimes you don't have the information

I mean, what if villain is a good TaGG here? How do you know he doesn't semi bluff? What prevents him from having QJ and making a sophisticated and pretty cheap semi bluff? Seems like a good move to me. And if you've been cont betting a lot he could be testing you out with JJ or something. People tend to overestimate their ability to "know" when they're beat. Players bluff. I'm pretty damn conservative but I bluff too and I've pulled the flop call turn minraise against thinking players time and time again. In the end, all you can do is go for the odds.

Against different players it might be correct to call and see what he does on the river, or fold... what if you knew that 88-TT was in his raising and the flop was 8TK instead? He might still show a set, but sometimes you just have to say I think I'm beat but I still have to call. Or even "I'm probably beat but pot odds dictate I call". Especially if you have TPTK or something against what appears to be a 2-pair you still have outs even if you're beaten so it doesn't need to be a bluff or a stupid raise very often at all to make a profitable call.

Rondavu is of course right in that you have to use all the available information to make the decision and think it all through. So the emotional instacall is a big no-no

[Rondavu]

Hold em odds is a very robust subject that begins with math and ends in a place less mathematical than psychological.

[Jupit3r]

I FTR community. You guys are great, and I'm amazed of how much time and energy you're willing to spend to help a newbie like me.

I have done better with this, althought as I'm becoming a better poker player I've managed to build new psychological leaks for myself.

What are the other inconsistent beliefs? I'll guess at some:
- If I see what he has then it will help me make better decisions on how to play him, and make money, later.... (incorrect, you already know what you need to know to play this person correctly)
- I don't want to be bluffed.... (incorrect, you already have a high level of confidence that you are beaten)
- It's OK to do it at NL25, but I'll stop doing it at NL50... (incorrect because you haven't changed your beliefs)
- I'm already ahead for the session so this won't hurt... (incorrect because it will hurt you both Now and Forever)
- YOU'LL have to find other incorrect beliefs for this situation. You KNOW you're making a mistake, but you can't stop. This is because you have inconsistent beliefs. (I know I'm repeating myself.)

First was half true. I used to think if I see now what he's holding, I have better understanding what other players of that type (tight/loose/weak/etc.) have in that kind of situation. That was warped. I'm happy to announce that I'm over that part of the leak now.

2) Bluffing. I don't mind to be bluffed so that point wasn't valid for me.

3) I understand that if it's a leak in NL25 it's a leak in NL50 too.

4) Now this is what hit the spot. Everytime I was couple of buy-ins ahead I started to make stupid decisions like this. This is something I'm still trying to overcome. I was kinda thinking I can afford to lose some and if I win this hand I have some more. I'm sure I'm able to conquer this problem now, after I read your reply because it really made me realize I'm doing this.

Yesterday I had my first big one session downswing, and it was -$150 at NL50. I was $70 ahead, and I felt I'm the one in control in the table(s). I made overconfident moves and plays which I later realized was stupid. I get these "immortal" feelings when I'm doing good. Today, I was playing way much better (althought didn't make very much profit). I feel like I needed that downswing to bring me down from my immortal high.

[aokrongly]

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