JJ OOP Linecheck

[Benoso]

Villain is 24/11 over 44 hands, and hasn't seen me doing anything out of the ordinary.

** Laguna Estate [Hold 'em] (0.15|0.30 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- cemjem sitting in seat 1 with $15.19
- Zaptista sitting in seat 2 with $64.82
- half_life sitting in seat 3 with $35.65
- Muzzza09 sitting in seat 4 with $10.75
- keiththefeet sitting in seat 5 with $24.61
- g_humphreys sitting in seat 6 with $116.48 [Dealer]

cemjem posted the small blind - $0.15
Zaptista posted the big blind - $0.30
** Dealing card to Zaptista: :Js: :Jc:
half_life folded
Muzzza09 called - $0.30
keiththefeet raised - $1.20
g_humphreys folded
cemjem folded
Zaptista re-raised - $3.90
Muzzza09 folded
keiththefeet called - $3.90

** Dealing the flop: :As:, :Ac:,
Zaptista checked
keiththefeet checked

** Dealing the turn: :Qs:
Zaptista checked
keiththefeet bet - $4.12
Zaptista you have 10 seconds to respond.
Time bank: Zaptista you have 118 seconds to respond
Zaptista folded
keiththefeet mucks
keiththefeet wins $11.97 from the main pot

I'm unsure whether the flop check was good or bad, I checked thinking, a bet only folds hands I beat and donates to hands I don't. However the check really doesn't tell me much about where I'm at does it? After he checked behind I was gonna lead a non-scary turn, but the turn was horrible so I checked again, he bet, I thought for a while and folded.

-How's my line?
-How should we play hands like this in general, i.e. OOP, high PP and a scare-card hits the flop?

[vegascoop]

I lead the flop in these spots. I'll take it down a lot. Without an ace he'll rarely continue. You're representing the bigger hand so follow through. It also makes it easier to get away from when villain shows aggression. I think c/c flop and lead turn makes the hand difficult to play.

[iceit]

2 things,
1, your preflop raise. What were you really trying to do? Keep him in the pot or make him fold his hand? If it were to make him fold his hand I think that your reraise was just not big enough.

2, the flop would have been an excellent spot to cbet because you showed strengh preflop like you had aces. A cbet on the flop would of also told you where you were in the hand. There is not much except an A or a flush draw that calles you on the flop.

so basically a more agressive line would of been a bit better I think.

later

[andy-akb]

I play this the exact same way if we call the turn. I am checking this flop nearly every time, on the turn however, it isnt as clear. On the turn I would suggest either a b/f line or c/c. C/F is way to weak given how underrepped our hand is, the fact that the bet was small AND that we have a draw to a strong flush.

I really disagree with what the others have said on the flop. They are both saying bet and represent aces, but why do we want to represent trips when our hand as it is has value? By representing a stronger hand, we do not get called by worse hands except maybe an occassional FD. Betting for information typically sucks, this is no different. You played the flop fine.

[benny999]

this is a common debate, but I like the flop check too. sometimes it makes it a little harder to play but often gets more value like andy said. I also check trips+ sometimes on the flop.

but then my standard line is to lead out on the turn for value mostly but also for info, and check and evaluate the river.

[vegascoop]

Interesting. Can I pick your brain on some of the other possible decisions on the hand? Maybe I can be less aggro robot.

If we check the flop and he bets are we still calling and possibly b/f turn?

As played, if we c/c the turn, what's our plan for the river, assuming no spade?

[benny999]

a typical opp won't bet the flop AND turn without an ace, maybe KK.
so if calling on the flop, I'd prob just c/f the turn, unless villain is exceptionally aggro or something.
nh if they bluffed me, but seems like that doesn't happen enough vs when I call down more obvious bluffs.
if it checks through, I check again and call or fold based on timing, size of bet, and any other reads.

I generally don't like info bets since they're only real good vs someone who will make it too hard to get to showdown if you check, yet give up if you show strength...but even then they still might float or raise it and you don't get info anyway.

[benny999]

here's a sort of similar hand I just played...

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1./$2.
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $200
Button: $203.70
Hero: $400.25
BB: $156.40

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with J J
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB calls.

Flop: Q A 7 ($12, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: 5 ($12, 2 players)
Hero bets $8, BB calls.

River: 4 ($28, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $58
BB shows Ks Jc
Hero shows Jh Jd

villain was real loose/donkish, but I was pretty sure would've bet the flop with an ace. then I doubted he'd thin value bet a Q on the river, he def would've floated the turn with a lot, and the price was decent so I check-called.

if i bet flop, i prob would had to check-fold the turn anyways. but this way, opp was more confused, maybe put me on QQ or AA...at least until the river.

oh ya, btw thanks to gabe for making that KK with an ace thread a while ago to get me thinking about not always betting at flops - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=sng

[Benoso]

Cheers for replies guys, seems mixed, so I guess the jury's still out.

On reflection, the turn was horrible, 4:1 pot odds and 11 outs (9 spades and two Jacks) so I folded with 20% pot odds and ~22% equity. Oh noes. It's a clear-cut call before we even consider implied odds, which are very significant here.

Ah well, I'll know next time.

1, your preflop raise. What were you really trying to do? Keep him in the pot or make him fold his hand? If it were to make him fold his hand I think that your reraise was just not big enough.

I thought I was ahead so I popped it up. I don't hate him folding and I don't hate seeing a flop. Is this a leak?

[Numbr2intheWorld]

i bet the flop

[Halv]

I play this the same without reads.

[vegascoop]

here's a sort of similar hand I just played...

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1./$2.
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $200
Button: $203.70
Hero: $400.25
BB: $156.40

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with J J
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB calls.

Flop: Q A 7 ($12, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: 5 ($12, 2 players)
Hero bets $8, BB calls.

River: 4 ($28, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $58
BB shows Ks Jc
Hero shows Jh Jd

villain was real loose/donkish, but I was pretty sure would've bet the flop with an ace. then I doubted he'd thin value bet a Q on the river, he def would've floated the turn with a lot, and the price was decent so I check-called.

if i bet flop, i prob would had to check-fold the turn anyways. but this way, opp was more confused, maybe put me on QQ or AA...at least until the river.

oh ya, btw thanks to gabe for making that KK with an ace thread a while ago to get me thinking about not always betting at flops - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=sng

Thanks Benny, that is a good thread.