Strategy: Raising for information, retarded?

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'm having a semi arguement with Massimo about whether raising for information is ever good?
Closer definition: You make a raise where almost all the hands that are calling are beating you and almost all the hands folding you were beating. Your hand has some SD value. Most of the time this would be versus an unknown. You do it in an attempt to save yourself from cry calls and an attempt to lose less money total on the hand.

I'm pretty sure 99% of the time you shouldn't raise for info but im just making sure.

[jyms]

You make a raise where almost all the hands that are calling are beating you and almost all the hands folding you were beating.

I'm not sure about most of what your asking, but this sounds like something you should never want to do. It is a lose - lose situation.

[IowaSkinsFan]

people would argue ur so lost if u dont raise that its better to raise for information here.

[Thee One]

Closer definition: You make a raise where almost all the hands that are calling are beating you and almost all the hands folding you were beating.

The question is, if you don't raise do you call a bet? If you call a bet you should raise, if you are folding to the bet you should c/f. Not sure if that's correct though.

You don't want to fold out weaker hands, but if they aren't calling your bets anyway, what's the point in having them stick around? Cheap showdown, right? And if better hands are calling, we don't want to bet into them as it's giving money away, but what about when worse hands bet? How do we know the difference? And do we lose enough value here to justify folding out the weaker hands to avoid folding to them?

[gabe]

raising for info is fine if you gain enough info to make the hand play in a way thats more +EV to you

[gabe]

whats % of the time that is fine though is debatable

[IowaSkinsFan]

DELETE: sorry double post.

[IowaSkinsFan]

raising for info is fine if you gain enough info to make the hand play in a way thats more +EV to you

Really?

How about this hand?
You have TT you raise pre and a blind calls, your HU going into the flop.
Flop comes Q97 and unknown blind leads half pot.
Do you raise or call?

[zenbitz]

But villian's answer isn't call or fold, he might re-raise. This is a contrived example, but...

You are in position with something like 2nd pair TK no draw on very wet flop. Villian C-bets, which means absolutely nothing.
If you raise, you think that:
1) he will push/3-bet big hands like 2p/set/overpair
2) he will call with draws+TP
3) he will fold anything else.

You can safely fold to the 3-bet, where a turn bet might be trickier.
You can try to push him off his calling hands (not that you are technically "beating" draws, but not by much).
You lose some value from 3) but not much as many turn cards suck for you.

Personally, I know my opponents that well exactly never (and note they never bluff!) so in a long-winded sense, it's probably retarded.

[Genitruc]

Lots of things to consider but based on your definition I think there are some spots which are definitely more +ev to raise than to call.

Your example of the 1010 hand isn't particularly relevant I don't think since you're dealing with a prototypical monster line. Raising donk-leads is in itself a complicated thing but being in position typically makes things better. Without a read I don't see how anything but calling the flop and folding the turn could be optimal.

A more tricky spot would be defending your blind with 66 vs an aggressive CO raiser.

After flat-calling preflop (debatable) you check and PFR bets 3/4 pot at a board of 7-7-8. This is a spot where, if CO likes to 2-barrel, it seems to me a C/R is better since he can rep so many hands if a 9-10-J-Q-K-A hits and we'll know that we could be facing a big river bet with only a bluff-catcher.

Clearly we almost always have the best hand on a low board with a PP but the flop CR is superior to the C/C simply because of our positional disadvantage and the width of PFR's opening range, making it a complete guessing game to put them on a hand for later streets. We're clearly not getting called by worse or folding out better hands (maybe... but unlikely) but this kind of raise seems better than calling.

[Renton]

this has been discussed many times, and the general conclusion is that its a good idea when you have a hand thats probably good but you don't see much value in value betting or calling down later streets. e.g. a hand like 88 on a 642 board, A8 on an 872 board, or QJ on a KJ4 board. Its a good idea to raise these hands to A) blur your flop raising range, B) to save yourself from shitty spots on the turn/river, and C) sometimes they fold better hands (like someone might fold K9 in the third scenario.

[Rondavu]

raising for info is fine if you gain enough info to make the hand play in a way thats more +EV to you

Really?

How about this hand?
You have TT you raise pre and a blind calls, your HU going into the flop.
Flop comes Q97 and unknown blind leads half pot.
Do you raise or call?

You shouldn't be thinking of it as raising for information. You should think about it as raising for a host of reasons that make you money. The first reason could be villain is capable of folding Qx. The second reason could be to charge a draw. The third could be to control the pot with a hand that has showdown value.

Now imagine you're up against an aggressive player who will bet 3 streets weak if you act passive, but folds his losing range too often when you raise. Obviously raising would be innapropriate in that spot.

[sauce123]

i think both ISF and Massimo need to play one of my fav games- just think of as many hands u can beat as possible. Theres soooo many if u add bluffs and FDs to their range!! Oh yea and floats, ur a nit if u dont add in floats.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'm talking about hands versus straight 100nl unknowns who are most likely not calling a raise without a hand that's beating us, and folding most all worse hands.

At 3/6, you don't have this problem that much because if your hand has decent SD value you pretty much always have worse hands calling flop raises.