12 Year Old Boy Killed in Hate Crime

[spoonitnow]

[Pascal]

"In both crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes, or race hate) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group."

[oskar]

fun fact: there is no word, not even an approximation to the word hate crime in german - of all languages! So if we could stop with this nonsense already and have crimes be crimes, that would be so great.

[wufwugy]

fun fact: there is no word, not even an approximation to the word hate crime in german - of all languages! So if we could stop with this nonsense already and have crimes be crimes, that would be so great.

That's because Germany was never a recipient of the Atlantic slave trade. That network created something in the Deep South and Brazil that Europe never had: the idea that black people are property

It's easy to not have "hate crimes" when you're a small nation of relatively ubiquitous people. See how batshit Germany gets when Europe becomes a federation of a bunch of people who don't like each other. That's what US is. Canada is similar, but they never had to deal with the Deep South, and Canada gets along a bit better with each other because of it. They've definitely had to deal with race issues, like with the Innuits, but that still is nothing compared to the Deep South aristocracy, whose entire worldview was predicated on the inferiority of blacks.

Seriously, demote Merkel to the Governor of Germany, and elect the EU President along with a bunch of "shady" Italians, Albanians, and Latvians, and you'll find the word "hate crime" makes a resurgence

[bikes]

circlejerking itt

[boost]

I think spoon is a white hat troll. He can't be serious with this shit, yet he sparks tons of awesome threads with his trolling.

[oskar]

I know it's an act, but I enjoy it.

[Fielmann]

fun fact: there is no word, not even an approximation to the word hate crime in german - of all languages!

The vast majority of world's languages don't have a short equivalent for the term "hate crime". There is no good reason why German not having a short equivalent for it would be particularly strange. However, in German, the word "Hassverbrechen" is common in this context. (Or "Hasskriminalität" if discussing hate crime in general and not a concrete incident.)

It's easy to not have "hate crimes" when you're a small nation of relatively ubiquitous people. See how batshit Germany gets when Europe becomes a federation of a bunch of people who don't like each other. [...] Seriously, demote Merkel to the Governor of Germany, and elect the EU President along with a bunch of "shady" Italians, Albanians, and Latvians, and you'll find the word "hate crime" makes a resurgence

At least according to European standards Germany is a huge country with plenty of ethnical diversity. The president of the European Council is often unofficially called the president of the E.U. The sitting president, Herman Van Rompuy, is a Fleming. Italy and Latvia have their representatives in literally all the relevant E.U. institutions. Despite all this, Merkel's Germany is the leading proponent of Europe's federalisation. (Within Germany, there are obviously lots of different views.)

[wufwugy]

The vast majority of world's languages don't have a short equivalent for the term "hate crime". There is no good reason why German not having a short equivalent for it would be particularly strange. However, in German, the word "Hassverbrechen" is common in this context. (Or "Hasskriminalität" if discussing hate crime in general and not a concrete incident.)

At least according to European standards Germany is a huge country with plenty of ethnical diversity. The president of the European Council is often unofficially called the president of the E.U. The sitting president, Herman Van Rompuy, is a Fleming. Italy and Latvia have their representatives in literally all the relevant E.U. institutions. Despite all this, Merkel's Germany is the leading proponent of Europe's federalisation. (Within Germany, there are obviously lots of different views.)

You're right that Germany is a large, diverse federation, but its population is still only the size of California, Texas, and New York (1/4th of the US), and its diversity is quite a bit less. US had immigration on levels that Germany never did, and the Nazis cleansed its population of interlopers. I remember when my brother came back from the year he spent in Garmisch in the 90s, he claimed that even if the Germans aren't racist now, their ancestors got their way because the country is now just a bunch of ethnic Germans. Compare that to me, who is about as "ethnic American" is it gets, but my line is probably quarter German, quarter French, quarter Welsh, quarter Polish/Czech/Austrian. Yet my heritage is vanilla compared to the hundred or so million Americans with mixes from every country on the planet.

While Germany is large and has some diversity, it isn't like the US, and Germany has a national identity unlike America's to show for it. It's a pretty phenomenal thing that the US federation has succeeded. No stable nation in history has been this diverse. Not even close. If US was any other empire from the past, it would probably have collapsed by now. One way of looking at it is how hard US has to fight in order to get a workable healthcare system. Each European nation hasn't had too difficult a time doing so because each nation has a strong identity. Norwegians are all Norwegian, the French are French. It's easy for voters to support welfarism when they think the people they're helping are like them, but in the US, many voters think half the country is just a bunch of interlopers living on the lam. It's because we're not "just American." We're a bunch of immigrants with wildly different cultures. There's Italians, Chinese, Jews, Africans, Mexicans, Germans all over the place

Even the UK suffers from its expanded diversity in ways that other modern western states, like France, don't. I think this sort of thing is always based in the idea that undesirables are cheating the system.

Canada lucked out. Its immigration patterns have been the same as the US, but with two serious differences: 1) lots of French liberals that US never got. 2) No slaving aristocrats that US got a bunch of. So the problems of diversity in Canada have been marginalized, while problems of diversity in US has been exacerbated.


Anyways I said all that to try to illustrate why the German federation governing itself is much different than an EU federation where Germany is like California, France is New York, Greece is Missouri, Spain is Michigan, etc and they all share federal power. Remember that the US wasn't really even a federation until after the Civil War. Before then, "these United States of America" were exactly that, sovereign states that could do pretty much whatever they wanted. Now we're "The United States of America", a giant sovereign federation with regional governments. When the EU is a federation and Germany is just a regional government, cultures will clash in ways they don't currently

I think there will be a EU federation by 2070.

[WillburForce]

ya, Germans don't have a history of hate crimes.

[Keith]

That's because Germany was never a recipient of the Atlantic slave trade. That network created something in the Deep South and Brazil that Europe never had: the idea that black people are property

It's easy to not have "hate crimes" when you're a small nation of relatively ubiquitous people. See how batshit Germany gets when Europe becomes a federation of a bunch of people who don't like each other. That's what US is. Canada is similar, but they never had to deal with the Deep South, and Canada gets along a bit better with each other because of it. They've definitely had to deal with race issues, like with the Innuits, but that still is nothing compared to the Deep South aristocracy, whose entire worldview was predicated on the inferiority of blacks.

Seriously, demote Merkel to the Governor of Germany, and elect the EU President along with a bunch of "shady" Italians, Albanians, and Latvians, and you'll find the word "hate crime" makes a resurgence

your ignorance is truly astounding. How can you say that because Germany didn't participate in the slave trade that they couldn't do hate crimes. What do you call the ghetto's the Nazi's created for the "inferior" race the jews and then their attempt to wipe out the jews, gypsies etc in the holocaust.
You stigmatize the deep south in the way that you talk about them in exactly the same way that the nazi's stigmatized the Jews and the slavers abused the freedom of the people they enslaved just because they were different.Look past the differences and everyone is basically the same.

[wufwugy]

ya, Germans don't have a history of hate crimes.

Of course they do. I was referring to the current state of affairs, which is drastically different than Nazi Germany

your ignorance is truly astounding. How can you say that because Germany didn't participate in the slave trade that they couldn't do hate crimes. What do you call the ghetto's the Nazi's created for the "inferior" race the jews and then their attempt to wipe out the jews, gypsies etc in the holocaust.
You stigmatize the deep south in the way that you talk about them in exactly the same way that the nazi's stigmatized the Jews and the slavers abused the freedom of the people they enslaved just because they were different.Look past the differences and everyone is basically the same.

What are you on about? Does this have any relevance to what I said?

Europe has a deeply racist past (every region in the world does), but it never had the Atlantic slave trade one, which is particularly unique to world history. It's because I know my world history that I can say that. European slavery was never much about race inferiority and had little to do with property ownership

[wufwugy]

When confronted by the statement "hate crime isn't a word in Germany", just compare their demographics to this




Germany: 81% ethnic Germans, 4% Turkish, 15% Other

America: So diverse that it has to be broken down by continent or color e.g. Caucasian, Hispanic, Asian, Black. Dig into national ethnicities and find out there's a bunch of Italians, Irish, Puerto Ricans, Koreans, Jews, etc sharing the same state.

[kiwiMark]

I never have any clue what anybody's point is when y'all get at it like this

[Luco]

Can someone explain the trayvon comment to me? You don't need to explain who trayvon is btw

[spoonitnow]

"In both crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes, or race hate) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group."

This boy was picked because he was white which makes it a hate crime.

Can someone explain the trayvon comment to me? You don't need to explain who trayvon is btw

It's a comment on the difference in media coverage between the Trayvon situation, which got a lot of media [more like propaganda] coverage, and this one, which has gotten little to none.

[jackvance]

I know it's an act, but I enjoy it.

It's not an act. Don't you see his point?

[Savy]

It's not an act. Don't you see his point?

It is an act in the sense that it tends to be exaggerated.

[Pascal]

This boy was picked because he was white which makes it a hate crime.

Proof?

[spoonitnow]

Proof?

Strong ties to the Black Panthers, did not choose the boy at random, tortured him for a while before killing him, no sign of mental illness, etc.

Funny how people believed Trayvon was a hate crime immediately with plenty of evidence that it wasn't while they immediately question whether this was a hate crime with tons of evidence supporting it. If Zimmerman was a member of the KKK, no one would argue against it. But this cunt is a member of the Black Panthers, and I can imagine how people are going to try to pass that off as irrelevant.

[wufwugy]

It's important to note that when we first heard of the Zimmerman/Martin case, there were no charges. It looked bad. It looked like he'd stalked a black kid and murdered him and the cops said idgaf

This case is different, or at least appears to be, in that she was charged from the beginning. It wasn't so much the race or the crime that people got mad about in the Zimmerman case, but the fact that he was walking about when it looked like he should have been behind bars. Of course, the reason it looked bad in the first place was shitty journalism that jumped to conclusions without knowing much of the facts

Granted, the Zimmerman case was turned into something it's not, so it would only be fair for those who made it all about race even after Zimmerman was clearly not a murderer to also be outraged about stories like the OP one

[Chelle]

All of it's fucked, imho.

I'unno when/if people are going to understand treating others like some pawn in their life, using others to better themselves in any sort of fashion, is sickening. It goes to people that do any sort of fuckery to another creature that could have been avoided. If you're protecting yourself or people you care about - okay, limit that creatures ability to cause any sort of fuckery.

But, certain people will never understand, and most people don't care to, it seems. Maybe I'm on some hippie bullshit, but, people need to chill the fuck out with meditation, find something that makes them happy, as long as it isn't hurting themselves or other people, and shut the fucking shit up with being fucking asshole dicks to people for no fucking reason 'cept some power struggle with their community, religion, past, personal shit, or any fucked thing that needs to chill the fuck out.

Brought to you by an overly emotional female.

[spoonitnow]

It's important to note that when we first heard of the Zimmerman/Martin case, there were no charges. It looked bad. It looked like he'd stalked a black kid and murdered him and the cops said idgaf

This case is different, or at least appears to be, in that she was charged from the beginning. It wasn't so much the race or the crime that people got mad about in the Zimmerman case, but the fact that he was walking about when it looked like he should have been behind bars. Of course, the reason it looked bad in the first place was shitty journalism that jumped to conclusions without knowing much of the facts

Granted, the Zimmerman case was turned into something it's not, so it would only be fair for those who made it all about race even after Zimmerman was clearly not a murderer to also be outraged about stories like the OP one

I don't disagree, and it's also very different in that it's an actual hate crime that involved the torture and death of a [real] child.

[boost]

Black Panthers are not some sort of equal but opposite (see what I did there?) version of the KKK. The Panthers were a militant civil rights group. I'm sure that in it's current form it has drifted from what it was at it's inception, but comparing it to the KKK is either ignorant or disingenuous. That's not to say that this lady didn't pick the boy she did based on race, but BP=KKK is just false through and through.

I've seen this a bunch since the Zimmerman case-- people try to find the black Zimmerman to discredit the narrative that white racism is still an issue. The problem is that they tend to find just that, a Zimmerman, where a lot of leaps need to be made to make them fit the desired narrative.

Also, I find this interesting:

tortured him for a while before killing him, no sign of mental illness, etc.

[spoonitnow]

Black Panthers are not some sort of equal but opposite (see what I did there?) version of the KKK. The Panthers were a militant civil rights group. I'm sure that in it's current form it has drifted from what it was at it's inception, but comparing it to the KKK is either ignorant or disingenuous. That's not to say that this lady didn't pick the boy she did based on race, but BP=KKK is just false through and through.

I've seen this a bunch since the Zimmerman case-- people try to find the black Zimmerman to discredit the narrative that white racism is still an issue. The problem is that they tend to find just that, a Zimmerman, where a lot of leaps need to be made to make them fit the desired narrative.

Also, I find this interesting:

What the Black Panthers WERE is irrelevant. Today, they are a racist organization who believes in violence against groups that they are racist against, and in that way, they are the same as the KKK. Obviously they are not completely the same as each other, and anyone could see that I wasn't asserting that they are. The comparison I made wasn't between the organizations, but between what the reaction would be if two people were in a racist organization.

Without going on too much of a tangent, what the KKK was at one point is also irrelevant. For example, they were led by (though not founded by, as a lot of people believe) General Nathan Forrest to oppose certain groups of carpetbaggers who were exploiting the post-war south. He also officially disbanded them after they started getting away from this goal about a year later, and he was who Forrest Gump was named after. From PBS.com for those interested:

"In 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school — and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan. A new, different, and much worse Klan would emerge, 35 years after Forrest's death, in the wake of D.W. Griffith's revolutionary 1915 film, Birth of a Nation, a reactionary screed with a racialist brief that had been expanded to include Catholics and immigrants of all kinds. The second Klan was never restricted to the South; its goals had nothing to do with Forrest's vision of a restored Dixie."

/KKK history hour

Related: Black Panthers Offer $10,000 Reward for Killing George Zimmerman: http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/0...rge-zimmerman/

Also, I said no mental illness to avert any talk about her being insane since most people probably don't know the details of the case. Somewhat unrelated, but it's worth noting that she even called the boy's mother to taunt her about her son.

[chardrian]

I know I am old, but I don't get the point of this thread.

Trying to compare this case to the Trayvon case is just silly.

[bode]

I know I am old, but I don't get the point of this thread.

Trying to compare this case to the Trayvon case is just silly.

no white hispanics in this one, amirite? pm me with the answer if this is not right.

[Chelle]

Somewhat unrelated, but it's worth noting that she even called the boy's mother to taunt her about her son.

....The fuck is wrong with people.

[eugmac]

When confronted by the statement "hate crime isn't a word in Germany", just compare their demographics to this

I must say I'm taken aback at how the entire midwest is German-dominated.

[boost]

What the Black Panthers WERE is irrelevant. Today, they are a racist organization who believes in violence against groups that they are racist against, and in that way, they are the same as the KKK. Obviously they are not completely the same as each other, and anyone could see that I wasn't asserting that they are. The comparison I made wasn't between the organizations, but between what the reaction would be if two people were in a racist organization.

Without going on too much of a tangent, what the KKK was at one point is also irrelevant. For example, they were led by (though not founded by, as a lot of people believe) General Nathan Forrest to oppose certain groups of carpetbaggers who were exploiting the post-war south. He also officially disbanded them after they started getting away from this goal about a year later, and he was who Forrest Gump was named after. From PBS.com for those interested:

"In 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school — and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan. A new, different, and much worse Klan would emerge, 35 years after Forrest's death, in the wake of D.W. Griffith's revolutionary 1915 film, Birth of a Nation, a reactionary screed with a racialist brief that had been expanded to include Catholics and immigrants of all kinds. The second Klan was never restricted to the South; its goals had nothing to do with Forrest's vision of a restored Dixie."

/KKK history hour

Related: Black Panthers Offer $10,000 Reward for Killing George Zimmerman: http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/0...rge-zimmerman/

Also, I said no mental illness to avert any talk about her being insane since most people probably don't know the details of the case. Somewhat unrelated, but it's worth noting that she even called the boy's mother to taunt her about her son.

Yeah, I can't fathom why I replied in that manner. All good points, and interesting bit about the original KKK. I've got to look into that, seems really interesting.

But here's the thing. People were upset because it appeared at the time that someone killed a young man because of his race, and wasn't even being charged. It seemed as if justice was being sidelined.

In this case, this woman is obviously a sick fuck, and she was caught, and charged, and probably stands no chance of getting away with it. Am I upset that sick people do sick things like this? Yes, sure-- but much more upsetting is when those people get away with it. Surely you can understand that the factors that fueled the Zimmerman/Martin outrage is simply not present in this case.

Like I said before, this is just one of many attempts to scoreboard race based crimes, by people who insist that either race isn't an issue, or white people have it as bad (or worse, lol..) on the issue of race. It's simply not the same thing. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that this lady will be punished for the perverse crimes she committed.

[WillburForce]

I don't get what your point is Spoon in general on these issues?