Looking for help

[Liam^]

Okay, where did I go wrong?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($9.99)
Button (Villain)/ ($5.88)
SB ($5.38)
BB ($4.20)
UTG ($2)
UTG+1 ($4.16)
MP1 ($2.60)
MP2 ($10.16)
MP3 ($1.79)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, 8. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10, Button(Villain)/ calls $0.10, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.70) J, 8, 5 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.35, Villain calls $0.35, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $0.35, UTG+1 calls $0.25.

Turn: ($2.10) T (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 folds, Hero bets $0.8, Villain calls $0.80, UTG folds.

River: ($3.70) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Villain calls $2.

Final Pot: $7.70

Results in white below:
Hero has Jc 8c (two pair, jacks and eights).
Villain has 9s 9c (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Villain wins $7.70.

[ChrisBCritter]

This seems fairly straight forward...

1. Fold PF. YES J8s is crap.
2. Raise Flop more (at least to 3/4s pot, probably more, you want to make the flush drawers pay)
3. Bet the turn harder (again 3/4s to full psb)
4. Actually a relatively beautiful blocking bet on the river, still hard to believe villian is that weak to not pop you for a raise there.
5. Realize that at the lower limits, some people will NOT fold their hands no matter how much you bet. Sometimes they get lucky.

HTH,
Chris

[Liam^]

J8 isn't a good enough suited connector on the CO then? On the flop I thought I was making them pay, did I work my odds out wrong? If I'd bet about 0.55, would I have lost the flush drawers but kept those with Jacks or overpairs (also apparently underpairs)?

The Turn I definately shoulda bet harder, QQ could have still been in, I didn't really think about 99, but Q9 would probably be in the villains range as well. Hmm.

[dmg7]

dont think QQ will be in is range... calling preflop n all.

just bet harder people will stick to their hands like super glue at these stakes.

[jyms]

Okay, where did I go wrong?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($9.99)
Button (Villain)/ ($5.88)
SB ($5.38)
BB ($4.20)
UTG ($2)
UTG+1 ($4.16)
MP1 ($2.60)
MP2 ($10.16)
MP3 ($1.79)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, 8. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero FOLDS,

Stop being so results oriented. J8s from the CO is a losing hand at these stakes over any significant amount of hands. Yea you got lucky and hit two pair, but how many times do you need to do this to break even with all the times you will fold the flop, or worse lose a shitload with TPWK

[Liam^]

Oh...well would you play it from the button? Or is J8s just never worth playing? What about if I had J9s? or Q9s?

[mixchange]

I think playing J8s on the button is OK. As played with 2p and many callers, you need to be potting each street. I would check that c/c river.

[Liam^]

I think I might take J8s and those kinda suited connectors out of my range. Now I think about it, at these stakes I doubt I'll get paid off much with them.

[swiggidy]

I don't remember where I saw it but the expected equity from 2 gappers is much much lower than a one gapper.

You would probably be better off raising and using your position than calling and trying to hit the flop.

[Chopper]

J8 isn't a good enough suited connector on the CO then?

NO! NO! NO! i wouldnt even play it from the button if you staked me, and demanded i played it when i got it. crap hand.

On the flop I thought I was making them pay, did I work my odds out wrong? If I'd bet about 0.55, would I have lost the flush drawers but kept those with Jacks or overpairs (also apparently underpairs)?

you have a vulnerable 2 pair here. and shouldnt be fooling around with odds. i assume neither of us have the skill to play THIS LEVEL (with all its call stations and passive, crappy draw chasers), and tease the odds. just blow them out while you are still best. if you try to string them along here, you WILL get chased, and burned far too frequently. at 10 NL, abc is best. another tag-line potentially...WHEN IN DOUBT, BLOW THEM OUT!

The Turn I definately shoulda bet harder, QQ could have still been in, I didn't really think about 99, but Q9 would probably be in the villains range as well. Hmm.

if someone still likes their hand, they are chasing, or floating. you need to fire a "high, hard one" or just give up your aggression, and hope you hold through.

the "secret" to low stakes like 10 NL is to never allow yourself to take marginal situations like this one (too vulnerable...what would you do once the board pairs? you are likely now behind to TPTK. or the spade hits? oops.) past the flop. the turn and river get too expensive. consequently, when you ARE in a situation like this, you need to stop fooling around with it...AND END THE HAND...pronto.

btw, too many who would call your little raise would also call a full psb, or pot-sized raise with only a flush draw. hint: THEY DONT UNDERSTAND ODDS!! so, charge them for it.

i have a friend, not that any of you care, that i talk with on a regular basis. he, to my immense frustration, is in love with sooooted cards. things like 25s, J7s, T6s and will play them at anytime to any reasonable raise pf. it drives me crazy. but he is self-admittedly in love with flushes, and will not change because he is not playing stakes high enough to demand he practice odds calculations and discipline.

i suggest you do not become this guy, and instead learn to FEAST on him. he will promote you all the way through the lower stakes, if you are disciplined enough to let him.

hope all that helps a little.

[salsa4ever]

come on now preflop isn't that bad!

I'll RAISE my J8s from CO most the time.

You went wrong because you bet only 1/2 pot on the flop and 1/3 pot on the turn. What are you waiting for... 4 of a kind? When you play J8s flops don't get much better than this. with a flush draw on the board you should bet 0.60 on the flop.

Turn bet can be slightly smaller in proportion to the pot therefore 1.50 as you played. Or $2 if you made the bigger flop bet.

River is fine. About 1/2 pot bet and fold if he pushes. At these stakes they ain't pushing anything other than 9x.

don't get results oriented. easy to say, hard to do.

[Ash256]

This hand was essentially a bad beat, nothing you coulda done.. yet, you played it bad.

Raise it to .70 on the flop to give the flushdraws bad odds.
3/4 the turn.
3/4 the river.

[Chopper]

heres where we go into more depth, i suppose.

yes, J8s is a crap hand. i dare any of you saying, "its not THAT bad," to prove to me you can play it for a profit over 20k hands. no way you can. i say this because i have 30k hands in my current database, and have seen J8s a grand total of 85 times...for a loss of $.30 (woohoo), but a BB/hand of +.03...and what does that tell you? i haven't seen it enough to know if i am profitable...and i doubt you have either.

and, remember the stakes here. hero is playing 10NL!! all the more reason to drop the hand at this level. too many call stations or passives who dont know strength when it reaches out and chokes them...at this level. hence, the crap hand.

your kicker sucks, your connectivity is marginal at best, and you sooted sucks because you are only J high. you get a four-flush board, and you are toast. you have 1, or less, than the 3 qualities you are looking for in a starting holding...and given the fact your opponents at these stakes can barely read a book, much less your hand, you are better off just dropping it. you arent tricking anyone...they dont think. they are only playing THEIR cards and the board.

that said, you CAN have a little fun with a holding like this...for practice. how??

i'm glad you asked. play it CHEAP...preflop. open-limp that thing, if you must. you will hear violent discussion i'm sure about why that is wrong, and they are partially right, but i am telling you right now...

see flops as cheaply as possible, at this level. unneccesary aggression is just that...unneccesary. you WILL still get paid when you connect, so why pump up the pot with a hand you rarely hit a strong flop with? play it cheap. cbetting down here does less good than at 25 NL...too many call. and, this is NOT a cbetting hand, anyway with callers to your original raise...they are not going anywhere.

play all the sooted connected/gapped stuff you want...hell, you can even get away with playing oop down here...if you dont raise everytime with that stuff. raise some, just not as a habit.

you are on a MARGINAL draw preflop...with passives. please tell me you can see why you do not want to get into a pissing match with these guys? they will call you down with 2nd pair. or A high...all of which will beat you most times. in terms of pot equity, before the flop, realize this...AX, KX, and QX all have a substantial equity edge on you, both HU and multiway. you are likely beat before the cards are even dealt. your only hope is to hit the flop...real hard.

see the flop cheaply, and punish them THEN. not before.

of course, your premiums still need to be raised. yes, they will be outdrawn quite often, but you have an "equity edge" preflop with these guys.

J8s has no "detectable" equity edge, and should be played accordingly when you cannot bump people off a pot.

hence, CRAP hand. you lost a pot you never should have been in, and by hitting the flop, the poker gods only made it worse for you. i say that rather "tongue in cheek," as i have been there many times myself. and strive to never let it happen again. doubt i can achieve such a lofty goal, tho...

just my .02

[MuddyWicket]

which would cost him more?

playing J8s or betting two pair in this manner?

[Chopper]

moot point. if you dont play J8s here, you dont have the chance to bet in said manner.

[MuddyWicket]

hardly moot if you play other 2pair like this....

[bigspenda73]

You guys make me laugh, you're talking about a 10 cent decision in a pot that ended up being 77 times that amount.

I would open J8s on the button everyday and twice on Sunday. I would definitely limp with it here in full ring with limpers.

There is nothing wrong with PF and for fucks sake it doesn't even matter, I'm glad you're getting yourself in these spots, you'll learn more about postflop play.

OP, post flop was somewhat poor. The flop raise should be full pot which would be $1 I believe . It does a few things for you

1. It builds a bigger pot
2. It hopefully folds out the button
3. It makes draws incorrect in calling

Now, the turn bet should be in the 3/4 pot range, so for this hand $1.50 would be OK. On the river I c/c hoping to have a flush draw bluff into me.

[Liam^]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, very helpful. I knew it was a bad hand after I played it, hence the posting it. I've taken these suited connectors out of my range for now, I'm still very green and I'm seeing I don't really have the postflop experience to play them properly.

I'll think I'll add it back to my late position as I learn to read people better, and I've since read some other stuff as well as this thread, and learnt to be far more aggressive. I have no trouble being aggressive if I have AA or the absolute nuts for example, but I need to be waaay more aggressive when I'm ahead on the flop to stop me getting drawn out on. I need to learn two pair isnt a flush and it's better to shut down the pot while I'm still ahead.

[mixchange]

Liam, I think a big point is you need to bet two pair hard the whole way, as it often is not the best hand by the river. Be happy taking 2p down on the turn.

[Chopper]

You guys make me laugh, you're talking about a 10 cent decision in a pot that ended up being 77 times that amount.

i think thats the point. save the 10 cents in the first place, put them in a better spot, and you wont lose the 77 times the amount because you put yourself in a marginal situation where you thought you got lucky...but instead got justice.