JJ against a 9/6

[euphoricism]

9/6 over 115 hands. This guy is rocktastic.

Zwemvleugel: posts big blind $0.25
innoj: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [J J]
redaustria: folds
redaustria is sitting out
MomoZerg: raises $0.75 to $1
euphoricism: calls $1 playing JJ for set value in position feels so weaktastic
juliam73: folds
Zwemvleugel: folds
*** FLOP *** [3 2 2]
MomoZerg: bets $2
euphoricism: calls $2
*** TURN *** [3h 2d 2c] [3]
MomoZerg: checks
euphoricism: bets $3.50 mmmeehh
MomoZerg: calls $3.50
*** RIVER *** [3h 2d 2c 3d] [5]
MomoZerg: checks
euphoricism: checks obv


I'm not sure about betting the turn. If I check the turn, i get to see the river for free. And by betting, while theres a *chance* i take it down, the vast majority of the time he's got QQ+ and at best calls, at worst check/raises and I dont get a chance for the sucky sucky.

But that presents the river. Do you call a bet?

[crazycrazy]

no i dont call reasonable bet from 9/6 on river on this hand. qustions is if he called with A kicker on turn. if u think yes then u can b/f. perosnaly i think he dont do that muhc and ur behind his range on river. i think he basically tries to show down his JJ+ from there on.

[bode]

i still 3-bet here.

[|~|ypermegachi]

3bet preflop

[crazycrazy]

raise the flop and see where ur at instantly

[kmind]

i still 3-bet here.

[Silly String]

This post begs the question: How many bluffs can a 9/6 run vs. regs. I like the way you played this hand. If you raise flop, and he 3bets or pushes you have to fold. Only hand you can call with is AA and that may be marginal since he is obviously set hunting.
Could you play 9/6 and run sick bluffs all day. Just play everthing like AA/KK.

[Zee Devee]

If you are bluffing a lot when you are 9/6 wouldn't that raise your VPIP?

[Silly String]

No, but it would raise you AF. Your AF at 9/6 should be huge anyway.
VPIP is only controlled by how many hands you voluntarily put money into a pot. That wouldn't change by bluffing, but the amounts of money and frequency of putting money in once already in the pot would increase.

[Galapogos]

For those who advocate a 3-bet against this guy, why?

[bode]

For those who advocate a 3-bet against this guy, why?

assuming villain isnt positionally retarded, then he is raising more than 6% on the CO. I would give him a range of 77+, AJs+, AQo+, KQ, ... probly more than this. We are ahead of this range, so i 3-bet.

[bode]

if this is an UTG raise w/ 6 players, i might flat call.

[crazycrazy]

No, but it would raise you AF. Your AF at 9/6 should be huge anyway.
VPIP is only controlled by how many hands you voluntarily put money into a pot. That wouldn't change by bluffing, but the amounts of money and frequency of putting money in once already in the pot would increase.

Can someone confirm this information ? When u bet u DO PUT money in the pot so it should raise ur VPIP....

[crazycrazy]

For those who advocate a 3-bet against this guy, why?

i think 3-beting flop he simply folds AQ+ and calls overpairs (probably not all of them)

[Silly String]

Let me clarify:
VPIP is only controlled by how many hands you voluntarily put money into a pot. Meaning if you are already in the pot and decide to bluff at it, it will not raise your VPIP. It is only a measure of pre-flop activity, not post flop bluffs/bets.

[Pelion]

No, but it would raise you AF. Your AF at 9/6 should be huge anyway.
VPIP is only controlled by how many hands you voluntarily put money into a pot. That wouldn't change by bluffing, but the amounts of money and frequency of putting money in once already in the pot would increase.

Can someone confirm this information ? When u bet u DO PUT money in the pot so it should raise ur VPIP....

hes not talking about bluffing 95o preflop. Hes talking about raising a 9/6 range and bluffing alot more missed flops.

VPIP works on a hand per hand basis. If you raise AK preflop youve put money in the pot. If you then bet the turn it still counts for 1 hand where you put money in. Not 2 hands. VPIP is almost the percentage of flops you see.

[|~|ypermegachi]

No, but it would raise you AF. Your AF at 9/6 should be huge anyway.
VPIP is only controlled by how many hands you voluntarily put money into a pot. That wouldn't change by bluffing, but the amounts of money and frequency of putting money in once already in the pot would increase.

Can someone confirm this information ? When u bet u DO PUT money in the pot so it should raise ur VPIP....

no. VPIP is only preflop.

[kmind]

For those who advocate a 3-bet against this guy, why?

assuming villain isnt positionally retarded, then he is raising more than 6% on the CO. I would give him a range of 77+, AJs+, AQo+, KQ, ... probly more than this. We are ahead of this range, so i 3-bet.

Agreed. I also think we can fold if he 4-bets us assuming we aren't deep and have set odds.

[bdawg56kg]

For those who advocate a 3-bet against this guy, why?

assuming villain isnt positionally retarded, then he is raising more than 6% on the CO. I would give him a range of 77+, AJs+, AQo+, KQ, ... probly more than this. We are ahead of this range, so i 3-bet.

Just because you are ahead of his range doesn't mean you should 3-bet. You are forgetting other factors like position and post-flop play.

I hate 3-betting pf against this guy with JJ (I'd rather 3-bet a suited connector). Same reason why 4-betting TT/JJ/QQ against most players is bad. It turns your hand pretty much into a bluff, since you are rarely getting called by worse. I think OP played the hand perfectly, though I might bet a bit more on turn. I wouldn't be surprised to have villain show up with QQ/KK/AA here.

I'm not sure about betting the turn. If I check the turn, i get to see the river for free. And by betting, while theres a *chance* i take it down, the vast majority of the time he's got QQ+ and at best calls, at worst check/raises and I dont get a chance for the sucky sucky.

But that presents the river. Do you call a bet?

You are betting the turn both for value (he could def c/c with a lower PP) and to protect against overs and draws (he is the type of player that would c/c AKdd here). You shouldn't be worried about getting a free card to "suck out", since 1) there's a decent chance your hand is good, and 2) you only have 2 outs if behind. And on the river I am folding to any reasonable sized bet. What could he have here that is bluffing? (since he obv is not the type to value-bet worse here on river)

[Pelion]

bdawg56kg. Quite alot of that range flips with us and alot of it is very easy for him to play against us. If he has KQ, AQ etc. then Id rather he folded preflop and gave us his equity without a fight. If he has 77 and we just call and the flop comes down with an A, K, Q then wtf do we do when he cbets? If we 3bet and he comes over then we lose the chance to stack his AA to our set which sucks, but if we resolve to play for an overpair then AA is going to put us into tough spots alot anyway, and if we just play for a set thenwe get pwnd by 77.

I think alot of it comes down to his 3bet calling range. If he calls with fairly speculative hands like 77, but folds easily dominated hands like KQ then 3betting is perfect since we take a medium pot those times he misses and we cbet, but we make sure to get away when he doesnt fold to the cbet. We also take a small pot preflop those times when we were really only 50/50 with him (KQ, AQ) which is a decent victory.

If he likes to call 3bets with AA/KK instead of 4betting, and also folds alot of the more speculative parts of his opening range then 3betting becomes alot more dangerous and we probably do better calling and set hunting for big pots while playing cautiously with just overpairs.

[gingerwizard]

Checking behind turn hoping for a 2 outer is no where near as good as betting it like you did.

What I don't like is how you treat a 9/6 raise from the CO as QQ+. It doesnt have to be! He'll be raising at least AQ+ 55+ from there, JJ is ahead of that and 3 betting makes is easier to play the hand.

Flat calling and playing for sets makes it easy to play the hand if thats really what you intend to do. But of course you missed your set but still played on. Why? You put him on QQ+, then call drawing to 2 outs. It makes no sense.

[sauce123]

1. sample size
2. bet river for value
3. preflop seems fine

[Renton]

preflop is std

bet river, why is it an obvious check? You have the best hand for sure and he calls with a ton of hands (namely lower pairs and AK)