HU, SB shoves...

[euphoricism]

Let's play a game. Eupho is a shortstack with 20bb in the SB, its folded to him. Youre in the BB. Eupho shoves. He does this with practically every hand when it is folded to him in the SB. You know this.

What would you call with?

[badgers]

Depends what range Eupho is actually on but something like top 40%. Shoving every hand in that spot is throwing money away imo.

[euphoricism]

40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o

[IowaSkinsFan]

40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o

ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.

[bigspenda73]

funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago

[Fnord]

If I know you're pushing any 2 and it's a raked game:
Any two cards 9+
Any two suited cards 8+
Any pair
Any Ace
Any Suited King
87s
I might even throw in a couple more hands like K8, etc.

If I'm not sure:
Any two cards 10+
Any two suited cards 9+
Any pair
Any suited Ace
Most suited Kings
A5+

[euphoricism]

40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o

ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.

Thats what i did, donkey.

[kmind]

funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago

I think like a month or two he did in the BC.

EDIT: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...106&highlight=

Could be another thread explaining more but this is what I found so far

[euphoricism]

Same idea, different application.

I want to know what a "reasonable player" calls with from the BB.

[euphoricism]

If I know you're pushing any 2 and it's a raked game:
Any two cards 9+
Any two suited cards 8+
Any pair
Any Ace
Any Suited King
87s
I might even throw in a couple more hands like K8, etc.

If I'm not sure:
Any two cards 10+
Any two suited cards 9+
Any pair
Any suited Ace
Most suited Kings
A5+

I used the "If I'm not sure:" range, as I think its more practical for this application. And while I believe your range is considerably wider than the "average player's" range, it's certainly what a good player would call with, so its worth examining. Your range came out to 27% of hands.

22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (only pasted because thats now three times ive cleared it out of PT and had to redo it hand by hand heh)

Against this range, I break even if I shove a hand range that has approximately 38.5% equity against this range. Therefore, according to PokerStove, I break even shoving 93.7% of my hands. This only excludes the worst of the worst hands. 83o, 72o and lower. I begin showing marginal profit (really marginal after rake) at 90% of my hands. Which removes 92o, 65o, and 43o.

Basically, what I'm trying to show is that what badgers wrote, "Shoving every hand in that spot is throwing money away imo." is wrong. Well, not really wrong. He's right. Its *possible* to make it -EV but you need to call with a wider range. And I contend that very few players (and certainly not the "average" one) will. His 40% estimate made my shove -0.44 EV.

[euphoricism]

I'm exactly neutral EV on the shove if you call with the following range (and I'm truly pushing 100%)

22+,A3s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A7o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

Corresponds to 25.2% of hands. If you call with a tighter range than this, my shove is profitable with any two cards.

[Fnord]

A strong SnG player should have better ranges here. This is just generally what I'm going with if I think you're being ghey and I'm not going to just give you the keys to my car.

[IowaSkinsFan]

40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o

ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.

Thats what i did, donkey.

Yeah i mean im just wondering what help other posters could be? This is a serious question, im not trying to make some witty "OH SNAP" response.

[euphoricism]

I dont want the ideal calling range. I want to know what the "normal" person is going to call with.

[badgers]

I dont want the ideal calling range. I want to know what the "normal" person is going to call with.

Depends entirely on reads on how often I have seen Eupho shove in this spot. You said I know he's shoving nealry any 2 therefore I call with top 40-50%.

[|~|ypermegachi]

any A, 66+, K8+, Q9+, SC 76+, OSC 98+

[euphoricism]

66+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A2o+,K8o+,Q 9o+,JTo,T9o,98o

is... 32.4% of hands.

Makes my shove (of any two, which i dont *actually* shove) -0.19 EV.

[|~|ypermegachi]

when you're shoving so wide it doesn't make much of a difference what your calling range is. any calling range from 30-50% will be reasonable enough that over hundreds of thousands of hands you might converge to break even.

[bigspenda73]

funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago

I think like a month or two he did in the BC.

EDIT: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...106&highlight=

Could be another thread explaining more but this is what I found so far

WRONG!!

This is the thread I remembered: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#442975

[sauce123]

A2o+ 22+ K9+ K7s+ QJo+ Q9s+

maybe a little tighter if u fold more than say 15% of the time

[euphoricism]

when you're shoving so wide it doesn't make much of a difference what your calling range is. any calling range from 30-50% will be reasonable enough that over hundreds of thousands of hands you might converge to break even.

How many people over hundreds of thousands of hands break even in the SB?

[euphoricism]

A2o+ 22+ K9+ K7s+ QJo+ Q9s+

maybe a little tighter if u fold more than say 15% of the time

shove is still +.08 EV, after rake slightly negative but I'm not real sure how to calculate that precisely.. Yours is probably the best "practical" range to make the shove near breakeven. I still contend the average players is tighter than that.

Then again I have been called by Q2o and K2o a few times ;p