Do I need to learn how to fold QQ PF? $10 NL

[eugmac]

I've been in 2-3 similar spots last couple days. I've just started playing $10 NL. I have no choice here but push or fold right? The opp here was Tagg-ish. Do they have TT/JJ often enough here? I just hate that I'm flipping vs AK... Also I was promoting a loose gambly table image so I thought he might possibly play back wide.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3972640871: Table Dew Drop (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:39:56 ET - 2007/10/26
Seat 1: XXtechnoirXX ($15.30)
Seat 2: Iolair ($9.60)
Seat 3: tomward ($14.30)
Seat 4: eugmac ($10.50)
Seat 5: Cmuth1488 ($11.25)
Seat 6: moccafilm ($5.05)
eugmac posts the small blind of $0.05
Cmuth1488 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eugmac [Qs Qh]
moccafilm folds
XXtechnoirXX folds
Iolair folds
tomward raises to $0.35
eugmac has 15 seconds left to act
eugmac raises to $1.25
Cmuth1488 folds
tomward has 15 seconds left to act
tomward raises to $4.15
eugmac has 15 seconds left to act
eugmac raises to $10.50, and is all in

[jackvance]

The majority of people at 10NL only 4bet AA-KK..

[eugmac]

The majority of people at 10NL only 4bet AA-KK..

That's what painful experience over the last few days has been teaching me.

[will641]

that is also my experience at 10 NL. Unless they are super aggro donkeys I only put it in pre 70bb or less.

[Irisheyes]

ya muck it

[bigspenda73]

if it wasn't FullTilt I'd say it's fine, but those 10nl games are pretty tight.

[Ash256]

..but those 10nl games are pretty tight.

Fuck me, wtf has happened to online poker!?

[bigspenda73]

All I know is I went to FTP to make like 3-4 10nl videos and I got smoked, then I went back to old faithful, PS and made like 5 buyins in a 45-minute session, that was enough for me!

All of the players play badly, but a lot of them do it by being too tight, which is exploitable, but it's just not that exploitable really. I mean, look at Martin on FTR, he played like 15k+ hands at that 10nl game at FTP and his winrate wasn't even that good and we know him for the most part to be a solid player.

[Chopper]

the US regs...and EVOLUTION. thats what happened. most players that are not brand new have a preflop game now...and have for over a year.

i have been preaching this for a year now, and i always get laughed at. hmmmm. the game is always changing, and without a new, constant supply of fish (damn you frist), the games will get tighter.

which is why we need to start LAGgin it up a bit.

that said, if the villain is aggro, you dont lay off QQ. if he is standard, you drop it like a bad habit to even a 3bet.

[bigspenda73]

if he is standard, you drop it like a bad habit to even a 3bet.

I agreed with pretty much everything until you said this. This is wrong. I'm never folding QQ to a 3bet PF.

[bigslikk]

His line was extremely strong. If he shoved over our re-raise, I would gleefully call. However, he makes it 3x to go...

[bigspenda73]

His line was extremely strong. If he shoved over our re-raise, I would gleefully call. However, he makes it 3x to go...

Right, he 4bet, not 3bet, calling the 4bet, not so good.

[eugmac]

Errr. So what's the best course of action? I'm in Canada. Cash out, go to where the true donkeys are? I remember I was playing at Ongame a year ago at 25NL/50NL full ring and it was so easy to play for stacks with TPTK... OTOH I'm down 2 buyins over 3 days making calls I always used to make and be shown mid-pair/air often enough to make a pretty damn good win-rate... Not so at FT thus far.

[Robb]

I over play this sometimes, and my QQ's are actually a LOSER hand overall in PT. But I also hit two HUGE sick suckouts with QQ. In general, now, having learned some painful lessons myself, I need a solid read (i.e. I've witnessed AK in this situation) to be all-in with him here.

With AK in his range (16 ways to make it), you're a coin flip to be at least slightly ahead in the hand rather than dominated by AA (6 ways) and KK (6 ways).

[Chopper]

you can still find plenty of soft networks. they are just softer POSTflop. and, you can still find plenty of soft networks, preflop. they just arent "all-in fests" like a couple years ago on party.

now, you actually have to play some post-flop poker.

if you have PT, you still look for vpip's (for the table) over 30% and pfr under 15%. that isnt hard to find. i would try party, pacific, ap, ub, stars-to some extent, prima, or anything connected with a casino.

another tip: look for BBJ's they always attract fish. yes, the extra rake sucks, but if the fish are there, and not at the regular tables, you will see me sitting at BBJ's.

oh, and maybe i was a bit overzealous with the QQ comment. but, i would only call a 4bet with it if villain is uber-aggro. 3bets? yeah, you gotta call...always, its just a matter if you push over or not (and that comes back to who your villain is).

[eugmac]

TPTK hands are currently winning me small pots, and stacking me otherwise.

The types of hands that are winning? Whenever I decide to loosen up and cold call raises on the button with 86s and flop big.

[Chopper]

bet TPTK on the flop, and learn when resistance is a "sign." for instance, you raise pf oop and get a caller or god forbid you call a 3bet) and flop J 8 5 rainbow and you have AJ, but get raised when you lead out. thats a sign.

the 86s flopping big? yes, that will always be the case. but sometimes you will go what feels like a week w/o "flopping big."

[Jack Sawyer]

(damn you frist)

who's frist and what did he do?

[Zaixer]

i have lost a lot of buyins at 50NL bcos i hate laying down QQ and AK preflop.

u think its correct to call a 3bet from a tight 3better with QQ? what if the flop is no overs and they want to get it in?

[jackvance]

I haven't played 10NL in a good while, but this is kinda how it's always been (atleast in my memory). It doesn't really have anything to do with how tight they are, this is a matter of being aggressive. Most of those people simply are passive. Loose and passive.. the most exploitable kind.

If they 4bet (or for most them, 3bet) it's AA-KK. Be glad, it makes them predictable and exploitable.

i have lost a lot of buyins at 50NL bcos i hate laying down QQ and AK preflop.

u think its correct to call a 3bet from a tight 3better with QQ? what if the flop is no overs and they want to get it in?

If you're always losing when you do that (as you seem to indicate), maybe learn your lesson and start folding? Heh..

[Chopper]

who's frist and what did he do?

Senator Bill Frist is the politician in the US that initiated the US regulations banning the transfers of monies into and out of gambling sites. he lumped "poker" in with gambling, but conveniently left out "lotteries" and "horse racing." the entities that are already somewhat regulated by the governments on some level. that is why the poker sites have "shut their doors" to the US players...they fear prosecution if they/their employees visit the US. also, why neteller shut itself off to US players.

and, to make it worse, Frist did it the chicken-shit way. he attached the "bill" to another "port security act" at the midnight hour when no one could "call him out." yet, no one could vote against it because it would look like they didnt want to fund "the war against terror" or "secure our own ports against terrorists." and that would be suicide for re-election.

a true chicken shit move. hopefully, it will turn out to be better long-term by setting up some gov't regulations and removing the "illegal" tags off of those of us still considered pariahs. but, somehow, i dont think so.

u think its correct to call a 3bet from a tight 3better with QQ?

yes. i do, even though i denounced it earlier. i dont lay off QQ to even a rock. in fact, i dont lay off prolly any pp against the tightest players because they cant drop overpairs. and when i hit my set, i get a stack. but, i look for "set odds" against them to a certain degree. in very tight games, or against very tight players, i will "set hunt" w/ JJ-. QQ is very borderline; you need a solid read that villain only raises with KK+ to set hunt with QQ.

what if the flop is no overs and they want to get it in?

i prolly wish myself luck and pay them off. what better conditions are you looking for post flop? if you wait only for the set, then, you miss a lot, imo. again, though, this can require a very specific/solid read. board texture needs to be looked at. could he be betting a draw? or is the flop dry? there is a reasonable chance that almost any opponent is following up with a big bluff with underpairs, AK, worse. how does the board favor YOU with backdoor opportunities? you need to look at all those things before dropping an overpair like QQ.

[martindcx1e]

All I know is I went to FTP to make like 3-4 10nl videos and I got smoked, then I went back to old faithful, PS and made like 5 buyins in a 45-minute session, that was enough for me!

All of the players play badly, but a lot of them do it by being too tight, which is exploitable, but it's just not that exploitable really. I mean, look at Martin on FTR, he played like 15k+ hands at that 10nl game at FTP and his winrate wasn't even that good and we know him for the most part to be a solid player.

I'm flattered . Ya umm FTP 10nl sucks...a lot. I mean there are still lots of terrible players but usually the fish are always playing with like 20-30bb stacks, and you kind of just trade coolers with the tight full stacks. You don't see the slew of 100bb donkeys throwing their money at you like they did (and apparently still do) at pokerroom and co. pre-frist. This month I'm somewhere around break-even after including my rb. So stars is actually considerably fishier spenda? I may just move on over there for a bit and try it out.

[Chopper]

...This month I'm somewhere around break-even after including my rb.

shouldnt that tell you your answer for 10NL?

[Clar17y]

I thought 3-betting semi-light in 6 max games was +ev?

It all depends on position though, for example:
If you had QQ on the BTN and BB 3-bets you, i wouldn't take it as seriously as UTG 4-betting you.
I play 50NL on party and i 3-bet the hell out of anyone with half a hand, doesn't mean KK+. Maybe if my 3-bet got raised i'd have to think quite hard before continuing but most of them are so passive that even if they have KK+ they'll just call your 3-bet and trap you like the bastards they are

So i felt QQ on a low board and probably run into kings lol. Say you have JJ and the board is 2c,5s,8d. Do you still felt it?
I was under the impression that a drawy board, it's ok to felt but if it looks like there are no oesd's or flush possibilities, you should lay it down?

Umm ex:
Hero dealt: JJ

UTG raises $1.5 to $2
CO folds
Hero raises $4 to $6
SB folds
BB folds
UTG calls $4

Flop: 2, 4 8

Should you be less willing to felt on that board than say:

Flop: 5,6,8

Clar

[PokerSwede]

I play 50NL on party and i 3-bet the hell out of anyone with half a hand, doesn't mean KK+. Maybe if my 3-bet got raised i'd have to think quite hard before continuing but most of them are so passive that even if they have KK+ they'll just call your 3-bet and trap you like the bastards they are

Heh, I love that they're so predictable on those levels! Don't know why you think it's a bad thing - guessing you don't like it cause of .
I mean, maybe I'll raise something like 97s from button and the standard stupid NL50 fish will re-raise (and they practically only re-raise QQ+, AKs and maybe AQs so it's soo easy to know what he got) me from blinds, or maybe someone limping from UTG - it's perfect! I'll just take the call and know that if I hit good he'll put it all in regardless and I'll get a buy-in and if I miss I'll just fold to his c-bet.

[martindcx1e]

...This month I'm somewhere around break-even after including my rb.

shouldnt that tell you your answer for 10NL?

well ya i already know it sucks...i said that ftp 10nl sucks in my post. i just decided to make it my home bc stars has no rb and i didn't really think the 10nl games could differ that much. i guess maybe they do though.

[bigspenda73]

All I know is I went to FTP to make like 3-4 10nl videos and I got smoked, then I went back to old faithful, PS and made like 5 buyins in a 45-minute session, that was enough for me!

All of the players play badly, but a lot of them do it by being too tight, which is exploitable, but it's just not that exploitable really. I mean, look at Martin on FTR, he played like 15k+ hands at that 10nl game at FTP and his winrate wasn't even that good and we know him for the most part to be a solid player.

I'm flattered . Ya umm FTP 10nl sucks...a lot. I mean there are still lots of terrible players but usually the fish are always playing with like 20-30bb stacks, and you kind of just trade coolers with the tight full stacks. You don't see the slew of 100bb donkeys throwing their money at you like they did (and apparently still do) at pokerroom and co. pre-frist. This month I'm somewhere around break-even after including my rb. So stars is actually considerably fishier spenda? I may just move on over there for a bit and try it out.

Pokerstars 10nl 6max game is a lot easier than FTP 6max 10nl game. I did a coaching session for someone at 10nl 6max the other day at FTP and I was amazed at the play going on, seems like everyone over there watches CTS's cardrunners videos.

I know there isnt much bonus/rb at PS but the site is a lot easier IMO, a lot a lot a lot easier.

[martindcx1e]

anyone know the rate at which you earn fpp's between 10nl - 100nl? or can anyone give an average per like 1k hands or so?

[martindcx1e]

If they 4bet (or for most them, 3bet) it's AA-KK. Be glad, it makes them predictable and exploitable.

It's funny how many ppl say this and then auto-call 4bet shoves all day long with KK.

[Chopper]

anyone know the rate at which you earn fpp's between 10nl - 100nl? or can anyone give an average per like 1k hands or so?

at 10, its horrible. at 25, its only slightly better. etc, etc. if you want "rates of accumulation," i would use bonuswhores' site, only for the "clearance rates of bonuses" and do any further calculations myself.

or play 10k hands w/ PT, and figure it yourself. i'm too lazy to do the math. i just know it really sucks at 10NL...you cant clear reloads down there. you need to be at 25, minimum.

and if its rakeback/FPP conversions you are worried about as compared to FTP, then i say "screw it." you are leaving money on the table by not switching, even if you got nothing from stars.

i would also add...open an account at AP. yeah, i hear its "rigged," and it may be, but no one is looking at your hole cards at a 10 or 25 table. and those players are worse than stars, by far. plus, AP sends reloads out constantly, and supports rakeback, too. i knocked down two BI's through RB, and 3 through a reload this month in less than 10k hands. not to mention, i had a good month and took the 25's and 50's for a 8 ptbb/100 clip. MONEY HO!!

[jackvance]

I mean, maybe I'll raise something like 97s from button and the standard stupid NL50 fish will re-raise (and they practically only re-raise QQ+, AKs and maybe AQs so it's soo easy to know what he got) me from blinds, or maybe someone limping from UTG - it's perfect! I'll just take the call and know that if I hit good he'll put it all in regardless and I'll get a buy-in and if I miss I'll just fold to his c-bet.

I have to say.. it's not as great as you make it seem imo.. kinda depends on stack sizes and how much he 3bets, but you'll only flop a monster less than 5% of the time, and 2 pair is pretty vulnerable still vs overpair. Also what if you flop a draw (will happen more often than flopping big) - just fold or are you gonna put more money in the middle? If you pay for example $2 every time for a shot to win $8 more it's a losing play..

[PokerSwede]

I mean, maybe I'll raise something like 97s from button and the standard stupid NL50 fish will re-raise (and they practically only re-raise QQ+, AKs and maybe AQs so it's soo easy to know what he got) me from blinds, or maybe someone limping from UTG - it's perfect! I'll just take the call and know that if I hit good he'll put it all in regardless and I'll get a buy-in and if I miss I'll just fold to his c-bet.

I have to say.. it's not as great as you make it seem imo.. kinda depends on stack sizes and how much he 3bets, but you'll only flop a monster less than 5% of the time, and 2 pair is pretty vulnerable still vs overpair. Also what if you flop a draw (will happen more often than flopping big) - just fold or are you gonna put more money in the middle? If you pay for example $2 every time for a shot to win $8 more it's a losing play..

Agreed. You're right and now afterwards it feels like I explained my thinking pretty bad. Of course it depends on stack sizes and the size of the 3-bet. From what I remember most players at the lower limtis tend to mini-raise their very good hands preflop to not scare away any lower hands but maybe it has changed.
It also depends on what notes I have on him as a player, aggressivness, maybe he c-bets 3/4 of his hands and checks the turn if miss? Lots of things that decide if I call or not, but you I'm pretty sure you already know that.
Of course it's different at higher stakes when opponents tend to be more aggressive, 3-bet properly and not give you the odds - but this was about lower limits so that's for another time...

[breathweapon]

I'm having a similar problem online, I use to be able to push/call the 4 Bet and catch Jacks in the act, but now it's at best AKs/u or at worst AA-KK. If it's a 4 Bet shove, then sometimes it's either AKs/u or QQ-JJ, but even then I'm going to start dropping AKs/u or QQ-JJ.

Does any one know if AK is still in people's 3/4Bet range on those stakes?

[martindcx1e]

Does any one know if AK is still in people's 3/4Bet range on those stakes?

Even if it is and their range is QQ+/AK then QQ is still a fold.