TT on an ugly board

[miracleriver]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($2)
SB ($2.98)
BB ($1.56)
UTG ($3.51)
Hero ($2.05)
MP2 ($1.50)
CO ($7.72)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T, T.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, Button calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.32) 5, 8, 6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.3, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $0.30.

Turn: ($0.92) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($0.92) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $0.92

How did I play this, especially on the turn and river?

[TLR]

I would bet turn

[daven]

I would bet turn

use the second barrel dude. hell, it's even loaded.

[Chopper]

bet/fold the turn. and either b/f river or check behind, if you think he is trapping with the str8.

[miracleriver]

So basically I shouldn't assume he has made a str8. Rather I should make him tell me if he's made it by betting the turn. Is that what you guys are saying?

[Chopper]

So basically I shouldn't assume he has made a str8. Rather I should make him tell me if he's made it by betting the turn. Is that what you guys are saying?

yes, because he is probably thinking YOU made the str8, if he didnt. its a hard thing to do, but you have to bite the bullet and fire again...giving up when he raises back...thats not often a bluff down here.

[Ash256]

I prefer check turn, b/f river.

What does he call with that we beat on the turn?

[miracleriver]

I prefer check turn, b/f river.

What does he call with that we beat on the turn?

Good point.

What do you bet on the river? 1/2 psb?

[Chopper]

I prefer check turn, b/f river.

What does he call with that we beat on the turn?

i dont understand. we say "what calls us that we beat?" WAY too often, imo. sometimes we are just too vulnerable to the next card to give it for free. if he calls, or raises, fine, we know where we stand. but..we still need to PROTECT ourselves now...in case he doesnt have us beat.

do we want to see a J or another paint on the river? and do we want to give it for free? bet now before you lose the river to some ragged overcard you let draw out.

if you dont bet this turn, you c/f it. either way is fine. i just prefer to be the aggressor in case villain is just as vulnerable.

[bode]

I prefer check turn, b/f river.

[Robb]

I prefer check turn, b/f river.

What does he call with that we beat on the turn?

Good point.

What do you bet on the river? 1/2 psb?

I would take the opposite line. I would b/f on the turn, if I thought a made straight had come over the top. My turn bet would be about 2/3 of the pot, maybe pot-sized. At microstakes, it's hard to tell what's big enough to drive out complete trash. At higher limits and in SnG's, I would bet half the pot. But you have to gauge the table/villain and value bet appropriately. But at least 2/3.

Having fired the 2nd barrel on the turn, I would be passive on the river, 'cuz that's when I think the ol' "what would call us that doesn't have us beat?" question is appropriate. I think we're ahead on the turn and should get more in there for value and to keep the str8 draw unprofitable. But if he's called all the way to the river, I'm worried. On the river, if it were checked to me, I would probably check. I've fired at this enough and can't get him out, so I may just see the showdown for free and hope I'm ahead.

Note: one of my big leaks is to make play after play at the same small pot until it's big. And then I trap myself, losing big with nothing cards. I think if you fired two barrels, flop and turn, you've just about maxed out what this holding is worth. You've tried your best to drive away draws, and you're likely to be ahead. But if you're beat, there's no reason to make it a more expensive beat. He's giving you the showdown for free. Take it.

If villain bets the river after all this action, fold. You're beat.

Edit: if villain's river bet is "real," then fold. If he makes some mini-raise (like the donkfish do at these stakes), call it.

[Chopper]

wow. i havent watched this thread for awhile, but Robb, you just hit a spot with me that i have seen an inordinate amount of lately..."the river value bet when the draw completes."

its so easy to think you have been floated with crap. but, down here...YOU HAVENT. your villain just went on the chase w/o calculating his odds.

this happens most often to me with a good A-kicker hand. i hit the A on the flop, and bet my 3/4. no one appears to improve on turn, so i bet 3/4 again. no one appears to improve, but the pot just got kind of big, and my villain(s) didnt go away. now, i usually drop to 1/2...if checked to. but, if oop, i take the free sd. i may leave value out there, but i see sets look for a minraise a lot here, too.

and, i have run into a TON of passive chasers lately. they look like floaters, but they are not. my adjustment?

started betting pot again on flop and turn. PUNISH THOSE DRAWS!! you may blow them off on the flop...GOOD. you dont want them chasing against you because you are getting ready to make it very expensive to do so, and wont know what to do when the draw hits.

there arent many of these crapheads that will only call a 2/3-3/4 bet, but wont call a psb. if they like what they have, they are in for the chase. if they dont like it, they drop it to a 1/2 pot bet on the flop.

plain and simple.

what you do on river is up to you, but not many hands should get that far against these types of players.

[Deanglow]

I'd much prefer bet turn check behind river.

[Robb]

what you do on river is up to you, but not many hands should get that far against these types of players.

Yeah, these types of players...I forget which pro said it, but "It's hard to put someone on a hand when they don't know themselves what they've got."

No offense, miracle, but two recent posts you've put up have been about "scary boards." Neither was all that scary. Here's my advice: don't worry so much about your opponents' BEST possible hands. Practice learning what their MOST LIKELY hands are. Your imagination can be your worst enemy. Fire in a bet, and let THEIR imaginations take over thinking about what YOU might have.

Finally, you seem to be working hard on your game-reading skills from the posts I've seen. That's awesome. Just one word of warning - you can't read the game all that well when those playing with you can't even read their hand.

Learn to trust your reads and realize that, at these stakes, 20 - 25% of the show downs you get to will make no sense to you whatsoever. They'll be all-in with air. They'll limp AA, and never raise it. They'll just do crazy sh**. If you can survive and adapt there, in crazy-land, you'll be ready to move up soon. And life will make a bit more sense. If you're reading the game at a 70% or better clip, getting you're money in good nearly 3/4 of the time, you're doing great. These micro-donks are impossible to read perfectly.

[Chopper]

here is an example that may or may not help.

i have no reads...therefore, i take him at his word when he bets. the UTG raise was because the table is 4-handed, and the table was running at 45%/2% according to PT over 40 hands. very passive table pf. so, i start to open up my open-raising range to get my premiums paid.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Absolute-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($40.10)
BB ($19.65)
Hero ($24.30)
Button ($12.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) , , (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.5, BB calls $1.50.

TP meh K. but i was the aggressor, and i hit what i was wanting to, so, i letter rip. at this point i am on cruise control. i am not stopping until the river or until he tells me to. standard TPTK style, imo.

Turn: ($5.10) (2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero??

SCREEEEEECH!! i slam on the brakes to think for a second. what is this? could the 3 have really helped him? prolly not. is this a bluff? was it KJ that foolishly check/called the flop? or, could it be K3s, 33 or a flush draw? my bet is 33 or flush draw. so, can i win this pot?...not without it getting really expensive. i would have to raise his $3 to $9+ just to take away his odds if he's on a flush. and, i dont want to do that with a marginal hand like KT w/ so little room to improve. so, i fold.

imo, there is a 50/50 chance this was some chump wanting to bluff me so he could brag about the bluff he pulled to his friends.

but, my experience is that donkeys at microstakes dont call, call, LEAD w/o strength. that 3 helped him somehow.

the reason for this obscure hand is to help with "betting patterns." no, its not a scary board. no, it wasnt a big pot...because i didnt let it become one when i didnt know where i stood.

i am the one in control here, not them. the minute i give them control is the minute i get stacked.

save your aggression, and fancy plays, for situations where you are likely WA. situations where there is no question that you are best.

in your TT hand, no one sent you a message. so, dont stop betting...at low stakes games.

[miracleriver]

No offense, miracle, but two recent posts you've put up have been about "scary boards." Neither was all that scary.

None taken. I think this board is scary because
1) it is very str8 connected and there were 4 players on the flop at a level where most players will call a psb with a gutshot without implied odds.
2) at that level, a lot of players love to call a pfr with connectors, 1 gapers, and will often call a psb on the flop with 2nd or even 3rd pair.

[Robb]

No offense, miracle, but two recent posts you've put up have been about "scary boards." Neither was all that scary.

None taken. I think this board is scary because
1) it is very str8 connected and there were 4 players on the flop at a level where most players will call a psb with a gutshot without implied odds.
2) at that level, a lot of players love to call a pfr with connectors, 1 gapers, and will often call a psb on the flop with 2nd or even 3rd pair.

Yeah, but think of it from the perspective of the individual limpers who are probably scattered among suited connectors, Ace-rag, Ace-rag suited, 20 hands and other random trash. Each one of them is about 20 to 1 against connecting solidly with the flop. Anyone of them who only catch a small of the board lose to your hand. So before the turn, you're very likely still ahead, so fire away. I agree this board is scarier on the turn which is why, by then, we're hoping to have chased off most of the action. And seriously, they should be worried about how well you connected with the flop, which is why you should bet flop and turn.

Edit: connecting solidly is two pair or better on the flop.

[miracleriver]

No offense, miracle, but two recent posts you've put up have been about "scary boards." Neither was all that scary.

None taken. I think this board is scary because
1) it is very str8 connected and there were 4 players on the flop at a level where most players will call a psb with a gutshot without implied odds.
2) at that level, a lot of players love to call a pfr with connectors, 1 gapers, and will often call a psb on the flop with 2nd or even 3rd pair.

Yeah, but think of it from the perspective of the individual limpers who are probably scattered among suited connectors, Ace-rag, Ace-rag suited, 20 hands and other random trash. Each one of them is about 20 to 1 against connecting solidly with the flop. Anyone of them who only catch a small of the board lose to your hand. So before the turn, you're very likely still ahead, so fire away. I agree this board is scarier on the turn which is why, by then, we're hoping to have chased off most of the action. And seriously, they should be worried about how well you connected with the flop, which is why you should bet flop and turn.

Edit: connecting solidly is two pair or better on the flop.

I agree I am likely ahead on the flop. On the turn, however, the strength of my hand took a dive. They are so many hands in his range that I beat on the flop and that now beat me, e.g. 54,75, 76,87, 98, 99, 9T, 9J. So I don't want to play a big pot with my TT. Do you agree with this? Also, if I am still ahead, villain has only few outs. If I am behind, I am drawing very thin, if not dead. But my hand still has some showdown value. So I like checking here to keep the pot small with the plan to call a reasonable bet.

It sounds you're saying the turn bet is a value-bet. But if I bet the turn, I'd be rooting more for a fold than a call (and this may be entirely wrong of me). Anyway, this is probably why I like the check on the turn better.

[Robb]

It sounds you're saying the turn bet is a value-bet. But if I bet the turn, I'd be rooting more for a fold than a call (and this may be entirely wrong of me). Anyway, this is probably why I like the check on the turn better.

Wait, I am hearing two different arguments. You say the board was scary because of multiway action, but that's the flop. On the turn, we're down to one opponent who may or may not have just hit his draw. I would argue you're still likely to be ahead. And you have four monster outs if a 9 hits the river, probably counterfeiting any straight that hit on the turn. If you bet 2/3 of the pot here, you won't want to get called. Anyone calling is likely ahead, but you have the river to hope for a 9 to get back ahead.

I would put the pressure on the villain to read my hand. Let his imagination sort out fears from fantasy.

[miracleriver]

It sounds you're saying the turn bet is a value-bet. But if I bet the turn, I'd be rooting more for a fold than a call (and this may be entirely wrong of me). Anyway, this is probably why I like the check on the turn better.

Wait, I am hearing two different arguments. You say the board was scary because of multiway action, but that's the flop. On the turn, we're down to one opponent who may or may not have just hit his draw. I would argue you're still likely to be ahead. And you have four monster outs if a 9 hits the river, probably counterfeiting any straight that hit on the turn. If you bet 2/3 of the pot here, you won't want to get called. Anyone calling is likely ahead, but you have the river to hope for a 9 to get back ahead.

I would put the pressure on the villain to read my hand. Let his imagination sort out fears from fantasy.

Oh ok, let me try to clarify what I meant. The flop isn't too bad; sure 2 pair, set, and even a straight are possible but most likely I am ahead. I don't mind being call on the flop. The turn is very bad though, and I feel that at this point, the strength of my hand has decreased dramatically because of lot of the hand that he called me with now has me beat. In my mind, the fact there were 4 players on the flop makes it more likely that such a hand is in there (maybe irrationally).

[Robb]

OK, this makes sense now. Here's my view. I bet one scary street hard for this reason: I know where I'm at. You need fold equity to make a bet, but in this hand you've represented a strong hand. So you've got some FE. So, bet the turn. If you get called, you know you're likely behind. But he'll probably fold. (If he rr's, you're out of there fast).

But what happens if you check and the river is an A, K, Q or J - or even a 4? Heck, darn near any card but a 9 or T sucks for you on the river. How do you call anything on the river if you check the turn? And if you're not going to call on the river, you've given away the hand to anyone gutsy enough to bluff with air or crazy enough to bet a small pair.

For me, I want to avoid giving the hand away, so I'm betting the turn, in spite of the scary card. And if I get messed with, I'm done with the hand (except I'm gonna call a donkey-ish min-raise on the end).

That's my rule - bet one scary street to see what develops. Here's an example: I've got red Q's, and the flop come T-high but 3 clubs. Yikes. But I'm firing away on the flop, just like it was rainbow. It's unlikely villain has hit the flush. Even if he did, he may be worried I have a higher one, or a draw to a higher one. Now, suppose he rr's. I'm out of there. Even if he calls, I'm done betting, without something dramatic hitting the board and some weak betting.

But bottom line, I'm not giving up control of this hand until he takes away the initiative. If he's got guts or a real hand, let him come over the top. Remember, he's not sure what I have, so he's worried about his hand not being good enough, too. Let him worry. My life is simple. Lead until you're not leading any more. Then get out of it.

[miracleriver]

started betting pot again on flop and turn. PUNISH THOSE DRAWS!! you may blow them off on the flop...GOOD. you dont want them chasing against you because you are getting ready to make it very expensive to do so, and wont know what to do when the draw hits.

On the turn, there isn't much of a draw I need to protect against. But don't you want them chasing when you are making it too expensive for them to draw?

[will641]

fire on the turn and check river. he still calls you with TP, and also, that completed a gut shot so it is less likely to have hit. he most likely hit a 7 if anything.