What is your went to showdown %?

[meeloche]

My winning at showdown % isn't as high as I'd like (45% ) and I think it might be because I'm seeing a showdown a little to often with marginal hands. My went to showdown percent is 25% right now through 10k hands.
That seems high, is it?

(I'm at 25nl right now)

[gabe]

youre running bad

[Da GOAT]

wining at SD% should be greater than 50% right
and went to SD should be 32% or so right

Thats what i understand anyway. Im not sure if SD of 32% is repe#resentative of players who are like 18/14 tho

[Clar17y]

Ut oh my WTSD is only 20%. W$SD is 53% and W$WSF is 40%.
Guess i should be going to show down more? lol

Clar

[biondino]

Yeah, my went to SD is round about 20% too, winning 48% of the time.

[griffey24]

DaGoat, wtsd of 32 seems a little high to me, but I'm not sure.

I run 20/16, and my wtsd is 26 almost 27%, and my won at SD is around 47%

[IowaSkinsFan]

Wow 20 buy in downswing?

Mines like 27% and I win 50% about.

[Rondavu]

That stat means nothing to me. I could be winning 20% of my showdowns and winning $$, or winning 80% of my showdowns and losing $$. Depends on the circumstances.

[griffey24]

That stat means nothing to me. I could be winning 20% of my showdowns and winning $$, or winning 80% of my showdowns and losing $$. Depends on the circumstances.

But yes.. I agree with this. Win the big pots and lose the small one's, and it doesn't really matter what your numbers are!

[IowaSkinsFan]

That stat means nothing to me. I could be winning 20% of my showdowns and winning $$, or winning 80% of my showdowns and losing $$. Depends on the circumstances.

While I will give a resounding yes to your main point, your exaggerating it way too much, but yes people shouldn't give a shit about stats nearly as much as they do.

[meeloche]

That stat means nothing to me. I could be winning 20% of my showdowns and winning $$, or winning 80% of my showdowns and losing $$. Depends on the circumstances.


While I will give a resounding yes to your main point, your exaggerating it way too much, but yes people shouldn't give a shit about stats nearly as much as they do.

Alright I'm not gonna worry about the went to showdown stat, maybe try and raise the win at showdown though, which couldn't hurt.

Thanks.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Alright I'm not gonna worry about the went to showdown stat, maybe try and raise the win at showdown though, which couldn't hurt.

Thanks.

wtf does this even mean, not to be harsh but you can't just say "OHHHH i want to raise my (for example what a lot of people say) my W$WSF (or even AF) because that's more ideal!!"

You can't do that, your stats will change based on your knowledge and understanding of poker concepts and how you apply them, realize this please.

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

[meeloche]

wtf does this even mean, not to be harsh but you can't just say "OHHHH i want to raise my (for example what a lot of people say) my W$WSF (or even AF) because that's more ideal!!"

You can't do that, your stats will change based on your knowledge and understanding of poker concepts and how you apply them, realize this please.

What I meant by that was to stop ending up at showdown with hands like second pair, bottom pair against people who aren't likely holding worse, and when I know I'm beat but call anyway cause i want to see it. I still suffer from time to time the he must be bluffing syndrome so it was more of a way to improve my play on the turn and the river not a legitimate goal to just win more pots at showdown magically.

[IowaSkinsFan]

wtf does this even mean, not to be harsh but you can't just say "OHHHH i want to raise my (for example what a lot of people say) my W$WSF (or even AF) because that's more ideal!!"

You can't do that, your stats will change based on your knowledge and understanding of poker concepts and how you apply them, realize this please.

What I meant by that was to stop ending up at showdown with hands like second pair, bottom pair against people who aren't likely holding worse, and when I know I'm beat but call anyway cause i want to see it. I still suffer from time to time the he must be bluffing syndrome so it was more of a way to improve my play on the turn and the river not a legitimate goal to just win more pots at showdown magically.

This is again flawed thinking really and when you use bad logic you don't get anywhere in poker. I remember a post where Daut said that he felt like the problem with most low stakes players was: "most of you have pretty poor reasoning why you think one hand is greater than another. you can basically make an argument for all hands but make sure you're arguing the right reasons."

That being said if when you play your focusing on not calling the river with second pair or bottom pair and call to see what he has syndrome, as well as improving your turn and river play, you are not going to get anywhere because that's not your problem. Your problem is:
1. Not being able to read hands well enough to know whether or not to fold, especially on the turn and river.
2. c/c in spots versus players who are passive and don't bluff when you should be b/f, b/c or c/f everytime. I mean I'll make it pretty simple for you, essentially everytime you check at the stakes you play where you aren't planning to raise you should fold to a bet. Yes, there are rare scenarios versus the players you play where this isn't the case, but very very rarely.
3. Tilt control

Understand concepts. The turn and river, whether or not to call with second or bottom pair, etc. are all the very outer branches of the poker tree. You have to move closer to the trunk to get your answers to the branches.

[sauce123]

i go like 25% and win 48% or something

[Silly String]

2. c/c in spots versus players who are passive and don't bluff when you should be b/f, b/c or c/f everytime. I mean I'll make it pretty simple for you, essentially everytime you check at the stakes you play where you aren't planning to raise you should fold to a bet. Yes, there are rare scenarios versus the players you play where this isn't the case, but very very rarely. . .

Understand concepts. The turn and river, whether or not to call with second or bottom pair, etc. are all the very outer branches of the poker tree. You have to move closer to the trunk to get your answers to the branches.

Verbal Gold.

[Rondavu]

ISF is correct meeloche. Improving your stats won't make you a better player. Becoming a better player will improve your stats. The showdown win % stat epitomizes this sentiment.

Concentrate on playing correctly, and everything else will fall into place. Though analyzing your stats will give you nominal help in this regard, it is certainly not the meat of the matter. To assume better stats mean better $$$, is to assume you are playing against yourself, much as you would in a long game of Tetris.

Poker is not Tetris

[Miffed22001]

mine is about 26% showdown with 52%+ winning.
oddly enough i know i lose a lot of pots as well so am i picking my spots well?

[meeloche]

Concentrate on playing correctly, and everything else will fall into place. Though analyzing your stats will give you nominal help in this regard, it is certainly not the meat of the matter. To assume better stats mean better $$$, is to assume you are playing against yourself, much as you would in a long game of Tetris.

Understand concepts. The turn and river, whether or not to call with second or bottom pair, etc. are all the very outer branches of the poker tree. You have to move closer to the trunk to get your answers to the branches.

Two very good posts.

Rondavu's post made me understand ISF's post if that makes sense. I think I'm grasping the validity of stats more now. I put too much stock into my poker tracker stats I think, as there is not one clear cut model to be a good poker player. Players with vastly different stats can achieve the same results. Instead of valuating my stats after a session I'm going to focus more on a hand by hand basis (looking at history's) and my play in general.

[biondino]

Okay, checked my stats for 2007:

Won when seeing flop: 40.7%
Went to showdown: 22.1%
Won at showdown: 47.9%

So... I fold too many decent hands before the showdown, but I either take the wrong hands to showdown or I end up with bluffs called and/or making crying calls when I know I'm beat?

(ptbb/100 for this period is 2.8 btw)

[Miffed22001]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

[EzDuzIt]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

this is probably a combination of not stealing enough pots postsflop, and not value betting enough.
preflop stats dont matter that much to wwsf. i guess they can a little but not that much. its more in your aggression factor numbers because it comes from aggression postflop.

[bigspenda73]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

this is probably a combination of not stealing enough pots postsflop, and not value betting enough.

I don't think not value-betting enough would lower this number.

It's a combo of lack of aggression with air and blowing passive players out of pots with strong hands due to bet-sizing. Maybe switch the lines your take with air/nut-hands.

[EzDuzIt]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

this is probably a combination of not stealing enough pots postsflop, and not value betting enough.

I don't think not value-betting enough would lower this number.

yes it can.
you will win more pots by betting.
for example on the turn if you puss out and check behind when you should have bet for value and then the other guy hits something he would have folded with thats more hands you lose seeing the flop.

[Chopper]

you will win more pots by betting.

sort of true, imo.

if you minbet all streets, your w$wsf and w$sd numbers will suck.

i see a lot of seemingly aggros do this. they are doing nothing to help themselves.

if you want to win more pots with aggression........bet sizing IS the key.

[Miffed22001]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

this is probably a combination of not stealing enough pots postsflop, and not value betting enough.
preflop stats dont matter that much to wwsf. i guess they can a little but not that much. its more in your aggression factor numbers because it comes from aggression postflop.

not really. Im pretty sure im value betting as thin as possible. From what i understand its more likely to be the softer/looser games i play in where people dont let go of mediocre hands when they should.

[Jack Sawyer]

Improving your stats won't make you a better player. Becoming a better player will improve your stats.

Gold. Pure gold.

[griffey24]

my won$ seeing flop is so much lower than everyone elses. Im mid 30s to late 30s and i play 20/15 like most

this is probably a combination of not stealing enough pots postsflop, and not value betting enough.
preflop stats dont matter that much to wwsf. i guess they can a little but not that much. its more in your aggression factor numbers because it comes from aggression postflop.

I think preflop stats/play is strongly linked to wwsf. The more aggressive you are pre, the more initiative you'll be taking on the flop and likely the higher your wwsf number will be.

If someone is playing passively pre, they won't have the initiative in a lot of flops and their wwsf will be low.

[EzDuzIt]

yeah i was comparing playing tag vs lag preflop not passiveness preflop.
and having a wwsf of 35 is a leak in almost all games.

[IowaSkinsFan]

W$WSF also depends on what sort of spots you are being aggresive in, and if ur too loose pre your playing weaker hands so your W$WSF is down.

[sauce123]

how u guys win so many showdowns???

i gotta get better hands

[Chopper]

wwsf is a number indicative of several factors.

-pf aggression/initiative on flop
-how often you fold to resistance
-how often you 2 barrel/3barrel
-how much respect you have when you lead out
-bet sizing

all these factors, and more.

a "low" wwsf can be a leak, but not always. ive read "ideal" is between 30-35%. lower, and you are folding too much. higher, and you are missing value by folding the table too early.

just like w$sd, theres a balance to it. but, it like diagnosing disease. that is just one "symptom" to a game. there are many other factors that determine EXACTLY what is good or bad about your game.

fwiw, i am running about 5-7 ptbb/100 at 25NL and 50NL right now over 15k hands...far better than this summer. and my wwsf is 33% and my w$sd is 56%. and wtsd is 21% (i fold a lot on the flop). for me, those numbers dont vary much...but my winrate does.

[EzDuzIt]

i agree with what ISF was saying about you cant just try to get certain stats. but if your wwsf is that low you need to be looking for more spots to be aggressive postflop and steal pots.

i think that a wwsf of 33% and only going to showdown 21% of the time means you need to improve your postflop game. i guess at 25nl with more multiway pots and calling stations your wwsf is going to be lower but 33% is definitely not being aggressive enough. and with a 21% wtsd youre probably giving people too much credit.

[Chopper]

prolly so, but where to call/float?

fwiw, my AF is 4+

[EzDuzIt]

your aggression factor could be higher because of folding too much in spots where you should call. which is probably really likely. so your probably not being that aggressive... which is also shown by the low wwsf.

[Chopper]

your aggression factor could be higher because of folding too much in spots where you should call. which is probably really likely. so your probably not being that aggressive... which is also shown by the low wwsf.

again, prolly right. but, where to call/float? scenarios? 2nd pair? TPGK in face of a c/r?

any typical/common situations that you can describe?

[EzDuzIt]

its hard to say, but probably just times where you get RRed or C/Red and you give to much credit. or maybe someone donks into you and you give to much credit. its hard to say since every situation is different.

[Chopper]

see, thats the thing....to a nit like me. a RR or c/r means serious strength. and a donkbet, when i have been the aggressor, is equally hard for me to read.

any suggestions? i know its all "dependent."

sorry for the hijack, meeloche, but this one struck a weak point in the armor.

[EzDuzIt]

just try to post more hands where you are facing aggression and arent sure what to do.