What's my range, what's your calling range?

[bigspenda73]

You are a 17/8 and I am much the same. You perceive me as a TAGG.

POKERSTARS GAME #13246609782: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/11/14 - 21:53:13 (ET)
Table 'Pyrrha II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 5: AApro ($88.45 in chips)
Seat 6: theshoot ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 7: bennypeaches ($20.25 in chips)
Seat 8: AlBrosso ($24.85 in chips)
Seat 9: LolTrappedU ($25.35 in chips)
bennypeaches: posts small blind $0.10
AlBrosso: posts big blind $0.25
S.Fam: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LolTrappedU [x x]
LolTrappedU: raises $0.75 to $1
AApro: folds
theshoot: folds
bennypeaches: raises $1.50 to $2.50
AlBrosso: folds
LolTrappedU: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [As 9h Qs]
bennypeaches: checks
LolTrappedU: checks
*** TURN *** [As 9h Qs] [Js]
ggizmo4 joins the table at seat #4
bennypeaches: checks
LolTrappedU: bets $4
Abundant1 joins the table at seat #3
bennypeaches: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [As 9h Qs Js] [5h]
bennypeaches: checks
LolTrappedU: bets $18.85 and is all-in
bennypeaches:

[Turska]

This 25NL right so your and opponents range is:

Any Two

[bigspenda73]

yea, silly me, shouldn't have tried to bring strat to the lower limits, I don't know what I was thinking.

[Andhrímnir]

As it's only 5 handed and not full table play, the ranges are most likely alot wider for the both of us.
I think your range Spenda is something like, 99, JJ-QQ, 67s-T9s, KTs, AJ+.
As i percieve you as a 17/8 Tagg and assuming no reads, my calling range would be quite narrow,
most of my flushes would call, KT and my JQA sets.

[spoonitnow]

yea, silly me, shouldn't have tried to bring strat to the lower limits, I don't know what I was thinking.

Hah.

I'd call with any straight or better against you specifically as played. We've shown weakness, so it's possible you're betting any middle two-pair or better this way in an effort to get us to call you down with one-pair hands since your river over-betting-the-pot push looks like a bluff.

FWIW I think we have KK.

[Rondavu]

Two hands are calling, and the rest are folding. Good bet.

[bigspenda73]

Two hands are calling, and the rest are folding. Good bet.

I thought so too, then I realized the only hand that makes sense for me is JJ so can I expect someone to fold if I'm only repping one hand.

FWIW I'd check behind this flop a lot with draws b/c I'd expect to get c/r'ed a lot.

I mean, his range is all over this flop unless he has KK.

[bigspenda73]

yea, silly me, shouldn't have tried to bring strat to the lower limits, I don't know what I was thinking.

Hah.

I'd call with any straight or better against you specifically as played. We've shown weakness, so it's possible you're betting any middle two-pair or better this way in an effort to get us to call you down with one-pair hands since your river over-betting-the-pot push looks like a bluff.

FWIW I think we have KK.

Ok, you don't call with AA/QQ/JJ?

Also, overbet shove looks like a bluff? I do it for value a lot of the time.

[bigspenda73]

Alright, we're down to 5-handed which I think some have overlooked.

My PF Range here is: 22+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo
Note: I'm never folding any of this range to a small 3bet
His 3betting range typcially is: QQ+,AKs,AKo
Note: could be slightly wider due to 3bet size.

Therefore, once we get past the flop it's pretty obvious he either has KK/AK to me, at least during the hand. I think I can get KK fold all the time and AK to fold a lot, FWIW, I'm pretty much repping just one hand, which sucks, but that hand is JJ. There is not one flush draw in my range if you look at the board, I cant have KXs here because I'm not opening KTs here, however, villain doesn't know that but he's not able to think like me either.

I either just have to have AA/JJ/bluff IMO with it weighted towards JJ/bluff I would think.

Results are interesting but I won't post them yet.

[kingnat]

I'll try to play along, but it's tough because I only have 80bb (meh)... and I wouldn't 3-bet this small very often (if ever) and from the SB.. but if ignore those details and assume I just lost $5 in teh previous hand cuz I run bad and was trying to make a real 3-bet and just mis-typed the amount... the below is a mixture of what I'd actually do and what I suspect the villian might be thinking.

Based on the gheyness of the betting I think my strategy is to enough to see a flop and get the BB out of the hand... since I'm going to be out of position after the flop my plan is to extract a little money PF with my premium hand, and take it down with a PSB on a non-scary flop. I could see JJ+, AJs+, and AQo+... I 3bet a wider range, but a lot of those hands are going to necessitate a larger 3-bet because I'd rather take the pot down here while I'm ahead.

On the flop I could check top two, TPTK, a set of Queens, a set of Aces, hoping for a bet, there isn't likely to be a made set (other than 9s), so this might be acceptable. But with two picture cards, and a flush draw.. I'd probably rather just bet most of those hands. If I have KK, I'm probably checking this flop because it fits the definition of scary as any Ace could very well call my bet. Villian (spenda) checks behind.

The turn brings a 3rd broadway card, and the flush... Now I feel I should really bet out many of those previous monster hands to see if the opponent wants to represent a flush since I would've expected the villian to bet with a flush draw after being check to on the flop... but I don't do that.. I check again, meaning that I want to be able to bitch after the hand if my pocket Aces lose OR, that I'm still holding KK and I'm hoping to get to showdown cheaply. I suppose I could hold AxKs and I'm fearful of AQ/AJ catching up.. but I'd pretty much always lead out with TPTK, and the nut flush draw.

Now villian bets 80% pot... and I call because I'm a fucking retard... ???.. seriously... the pot is $13 and I now have $12 behind. I'm either still slowplaying my set, or praying my AxKs can improve to a flush or that you will slow down on the river.

Barf.. I'm butchering this royally.. it's too hard to follow every street with out more information, and for everything i'm mentioning there are 4 more that I'm thinking of and not putting down.

On the river, I think opponent's calling range could be JJ+, AJs+... which I think represents your pushing range here except your's includes 99, TT (with Ts)... I wouldn't expect you to hold AA or QQ very often, but it's possible I guess. was that enough diarrhea of the mouth?

[kingnat]

Upon doing this.. I think I blow hard at reading a hand... or the play is too bizarre to draw meaningful conclusions without more info... or both.

[bigspenda73]

Youre pretty close

it's fairly obvious one of his cards is the Ks now he can either Have AxKs, KsQx, KsKx and KQ is highly discounted.

[BankItDrew]

i think we have KsTs or JJ and villain has KhKd or a weak ace.

[bigspenda73]

does villain call with KK or a weak ace?

[DaNutsInYoEye]

SH, not FR

[bigspenda73]

SH, not FR

It's at a FullRing table padz, so I'm assuming he isn't adjusting much, and since I'm 9tabling, my range probably isn't adjusted as much either.

[bigspenda73]

Results in white:

I had 66
Villain timebanked and called with.....KdKh

[DaHorror]

Doh - a little late to the party but ...

Given that his line looks a lot like KsKx to me too, wouldn't the most callable river bets by you be either a $4-$6 range or a push?
Even with a push he'd have to assume you were bluffing roughly 50% of the time to be profitable is that right?

Your line appears to me to be one of JJ, AJ, 89s/9Ts or a 1-pair bluff to me but I don't think I can assign a 50% or even a 30% to the bluff so I don't think KK can normally call there.

Would a bet right around $8 range be less likely to be called than the push (which looks like either a bluff or a fake bluff)?

[bigspenda73]

Well I shove here with the nuts/near-nuts all the time, so I'm kinda balancing, but at $25nl I don't have to balance, but I'm sort of used to doing it for balance, so I did, fully expecting him to snap-fold the river with his entire range. You might ask then why would I shove the nuts, well it's because in this hand his range is typically uncallable hands on this river, when normally the boards do not turn out this way and I get looked up light because of it.

[Turska]

Why would you make moves in 25NL against solid TAG when
there is lot of bad players to make profit on with little or no risk
at all?

As played I am surprised KK could call that. Your preflop
call was kinda giveaway though. Especially if u have
played small pairs in the same way before.

Any really strong hand would have probably re-raised so
villain can exclude AA,AK,KK,QQ and probably JJ.

Now the question is would you call his raise with AQ,AJ?

Villain checks and you check behind. The board is quite drawy
so he can exclude Ax as well. I think you should have bet with
JJ & Ax there with possible fl and str8 draws.

Now Villain has to think if u have 99 or 55. If he thinks you could
be bluffing here sometimes he could justify to call with KK.

Good play though for future value...

[bigspenda73]

I never 4bet PF with JJ+ unless opponent is a spewtard and his 5bet range/4bet calling range is still behind QQ/JJ.

"why would I do this against solid TAGG"
well, um, because he should fold KsKx which is what he should have on the turn like 95% of the time.

BTW, I think I do this with AQ too to tell the truth, so my range does include more hands that beat him that I first thought.

[Jack Sawyer]

Lets beat a dead horse


bluffing at lower limits =

[bigspenda73]

Bluffing is great against the TAGG's at Full Ring and you're not going to convince me otherwise. There are some TAGGs, like this guy, who probably won't be moving up anytime soon because of hero calls like this. I'd say 75%+ of the time I have him slaughtered here, making his call slightly -EV at best.

I bring a more aggressive approach to Full Ring than most due to my 6max background, which is great, because you can actually bluff scare cards. I put notes on all players too, so I know who I can bluff in the future, who I've already bluffed, and who looked up my bluffs.

I 3barrelled an Ace hi board last night against a nit and he call down with 33, needless to say I stacked him 5 hands later when I did the same thing with top set and he called an overbet shove with like middle pair. You set up an image and you take advantage of it, and that's exploitation. He won a $23 pot I won a $60 pot, I'd say I came out ahead in that battle.

I just don't like the whole burning money by bluffing argument, at some point in our lives we have to move past nut-camping and turn into poker players, you might as well learn how to do it at the lower levels where the "price" of learning doesn't hurt so much.

[Jack Sawyer]

Bluffing is great against the TAGG's at Full Ring and you're not going to convince me otherwise.

ok



/EOD

[bigspenda73]

lol, I guess that would end it, srry if I came of like a know-it-all or stubborn, but I feel a lot of our money at Full Ring can be made from the nitty multi-tablers who refuse to adjust and/or pay attention.

[Jack Sawyer]

NP


I'm trying to think of a counter argument, but I have none. Just one thing to say: too many calling stations on the lower stakes, who simply won't ever fold under any circumstances.
They'll c/c the whole way, with pretty much any small/ medium/ big pocket pair. I think they go all ecstatic when they catch someone bluffing (HA! THOUGHT U WOULD PUSH ME OFF THIS POT? THINK AGAIN!! NOONE BLUFFS MEE!), or get into tarp mode with big hands and will still check/call/ grandiose river allin, and simply will never ever fold, and especially not when they reraised pf.


vbet 'em to death. do not bluff the unbluffable.

[Jack Sawyer]

And yes, even 17/8's at lower stakes are calling stations when they 3bet pf, regardless wether their hand improves or not

[BankItDrew]

I never 4bet PF with JJ+ unless opponent is a spewtard and his 5bet range/4bet calling range is still behind QQ/JJ.

"why would I do this against solid TAGG"
well, um, because he should fold KsKx which is what he should have on the turn like 95% of the time.

this isn't true because you showed no strength on the flop and villain has shown no strength with KK.