another cbetting/not cbetting discussion

[Chopper]

i havent seen this one in awhile, and i need to review/hear more points.

lately, i cbet like a monkey. not a big deal, but i am running up against a lot of callers. i try and watch who is calling and who is folding. i try and avoid cbetting oop unless hu, and dont like it when 3+ players called my raise. board texture also critically important, but...

my REAL issue is "donkstakes cbetting." i have a very TPTK style. it seems as though, TP isnt as strong anymore. i know thats not true, but i find a lot more ppl calling. whats the general strat?

cbet bigger? more often? less often? raise more pf? 2barrel?

just want to reopen an old discussion.

typically, when do YOU do it? what do YOU look for? when do YOU avoid it?

[Beck]

I dont think there is a general rule I go buy. As you mentioned it, it mainly has to do with the flop, your opponents/callers, and what u have. Think of it this way. If you c-bet less, then you will get less callers if they are paying attention.

I look for chronic c-beters and try and win a pot here and there from them.

-beck

[Kagey]

Just some random points, since I know exactly how expensive it gets at donk stakes when the deck's cold and you find yourself C-betting into calling stations, then giving up on the turn.

I've noticed recently that players are becoming looser and more passive pre-flop, not sure if this is just on ipoker or everywhere, most tables have between 1 and 3 players playing 40/3, 34/8, 55/12 type stats, and obviously position and table selection is critical. Some tables I'll just give up on. I'm starting to think that tables can play too loose. There are also a lot of stort-stacks around which increases the difficulty of finding a suitable table. At 50nl you can find whole tables made up of 20bb stacks.
What I'm looking for is one or two loose passives, a short stack and two weak tight nit regs, with good position.

I play about 18/13 but I've really tightened up UTG and UTG+1. AJ+ from UTG. This keeps me from getting in marginal spots and getting tilty.

As a default I c-bet when checked to. I also c-bet OOP HU most of the time, sometimes I check re-raise if I suspect I'm getting floated a lot, sometimes with cards sometimes with air. OOP with 2 or more callers I generally only C-bet with TPTK, overpair, nut flush draw, OESD or better hands.

I fire lots of second barrels against known chasers when there are two to the flush on the flop. There are also some players who never fold to a C-bet IP or OOP, but always seem to fold to a second barrel.

I can remember when I started playing, I played only one table, limped a lot pre-flop and I remember thinking the players who always raised pre-flop were overaggro maniacs. This is how these players view you, despite playing tighter than them.

Reads are critical, for example I feel that I'd be so easy to play against I almost always fold to a C-bet unless I have the goods. Against calling stations I don't think C-bet I think V-bet.

I sometimes vary C-bet sizes against observant players I'll slighty overbet or underbet the flop sometimes with air sometimes with the nuts.

If I have a big overpair and flop come 79 10 with 2 to a flush and I'm OOP against 3 callers I start thinking about raising more pre-flop.

Where I have most problems is playing against loose blinds from the button especially when they are not fully stacked.

Sorry I'm hungover and rambling.

[Chopper]

i tend to agree with the comment, "players are seeming to get looser and more passive pre-flop." and, imo, a table full of them can lead to sklansky's "schooling effect." i just dont think you can beat 4 wide ranges at a 6max table...not w/o a lot of variance.

and, yes, its the cbetting flops and dumping on turns that gets expensive for me, too. and, 2barreling only makes it MORE expensive when you have air. by the time the river misses your AQ/AK, you receive a small value-bet in the face only to pay it off (because youre getting 10:1) and find J8 hit its 8 on the turn. but, i digress...

i look for "fold to flop numbers," and dont cbet those under 45% or so. (say what you want about HOH telling you to cbet 1/2-2/3, but those sizes get NO respect at donkstakes. would you ever cbet 1/2 pot after a 7X pfr in a casino? (more on that question in a bit)) i value bet them only when i hit. variance is high against these guys, too, but there's no way its unprofitable long-term...it just feels like it.

i tried betting smaller, to keep it cheap for me, but quickly realized that's STUPID. you need to get respect from your bets...all of them. you respond by betting BIGGER! i have moved my pfr's to 4X+1, or 5X+1, and i pot the flop and 3/4 turn when i connected. most dont make it past the flop.

does that seem more like the live games? should we be responding accordingly when we find a whole table of LPP's (the 35/6, 44/5 types)?

[JL]

I play against a ton of calling stations and loose-aggro donkeys.
I used to have the same problem as you: my c-bets were constantly getting called by these types of players.

Lately, I have been c-betting way way less, especially OOP.
I frequently just check behind now with AK/AQ type hands when I miss the flop.
Against the calling stations, I only like to c-bet flops such as paired flops, A or K high flops, or unconnected rainbow flops.

Although this isn't the only reason, but my winrate has increased a lot since changing this.

[thizzSantaCruz]

cbet big with the goods and small with air. people at 50 are too dumb too catch on

[will641]

I c bet almost every flop. at those stakes i would still do it, but i noticed i would go on huge swings on it working/failing. sometimes for 5 k hands it would work like a charm and visa versa. But yeah, when i am play an "uber donk call any cbet with any 2" type player i wont c bet with air hardly at all OOP, in Pos. more, and never 2 barrel them, because they will call with any pair, and some with A high.

[JL]

I c bet almost every flop. at those stakes i would still do it, but i noticed i would go on huge swings on it working/failing. sometimes for 5 k hands it would work like a charm and visa versa. But yeah, when i am play an "uber donk call any cbet with any 2" type player i wont c bet with air hardly at all OOP, in Pos. more, and never 2 barrel them, because they will call with any pair, and some with A high.

Basically described 75% of the players that sit directly to my right.

Took me too long to figure out that I shouldn't be cbetting these types so often.

[Chopper]

thats the adjustment i am trying to make, but its so damned difficult. it just feels so friggin weak. it has taken me 60 days to start to catch on. but, i'll get there.

[gabe]

bluff the turn more

[bair]

put folds to c-bet/calls c-bet/raises c-bet on your PAhud. double barrel more.

[Chopper]

put folds to c-bet/calls c-bet/raises c-bet on your PAhud. double barrel more.

no offense, but whats the point of BOTH folds cbet and calls cbet? shouldnt they be exactly inverse?

i have been carrying "folds to flop bet" along side "folds cbet" to see if theres much of a difference. some players call in limped pots, but not in raised pots, but the difference is usually negligible.