When Does Skill Become Important in FR?

[jterry]

Today I had a fleeting thought. When does actual poker skill start to become a factor when plaing full ring NL? I can beat 5 and 10 NL for around 10BB/100, and it's very mechanical - play pairs and high suited connectors, and push when you have the nuts (e.g. trips or better). Implied odds are huge.

I've come to realize that being "good" is not that important playing online micro stakes poker! I was watching Poker after dark tonight, and it was Doyle Brunson, Phil Hellmuth, and TJ Cloutier at the final table. TJ Cloutier said to Hellmuth something to the effect that you might win by holding the best hand, but you won't win by outplaying us. That's pretty much how you win online, holding the best hand - not by outplaying your opponents.

Suppose you start winning online after playing a fair number of hands, say 25K or more, and you never play above 50NL. Then you play a live $1/$2 cash game at a casino agains thinking players. What will happen? Grinding it out against good players isn't going to win you very much. Even worse, the thinking players start to recognize your betting patterns, and your screwed - they know went to fold to your raises and when to push you off a hand. Now you have to start playing real poker!

When do you need to stop playing mechanical poker online? When does grinding stop working? Can playing the mechanical poker system actually harm you're poker playing ability?

I think the problem is that you (I) get into a gear (the grinder gear) and never change it up. How and when do you change gears? And when do you need to?

Just some random thoughts. Maybe I can learn something from this.

[Andrew]

I actually started to think about this today. I'm a card man and I prefer the realness of being against someone live. I want to be the best live poker player I can be (and aim to be the best ever). Why live? Because I don't really enjoy sitting in front of a computer screen all day, every day and even in my short experience there is a huge difference between live and online.

So here's what I'm wondering. Starting out as a poker player is it best to be a good to great poker player or aim to be able to beat online games to the point where I'm making good money. I think the former can help with the latter, but I'm still unsure if it works the other way around.

[spoonitnow]

At 10nl and below, the act of playing better hands and how you bet them is part of the skillset required to win. As you play better players or a different format of poker, the skillset required to win changes. To answer your first question, skill is important in full ring at all levels.

Once you get to certain levels, "mechanical" play takes on different meanings. I feel like I play very mechanically, but those mechanics probably involve a lot more active engagement and thinking about individual opponents than would be necessary at the lowest of microstakes.

As you improve, the things you do mechanically change, and changing gears becomes automatic to some degree. At least that's how I feel about it.

[jterry]

I should qualify what I mean by skill. Of course the "mechanical" system requires a certain amount of skill such as bankroll management, table selection, hand reading, patience, etc.

The skill I'm thinking of is a higher level of thinking than the grinder (basic poker skills).

So my question becomes when do you need to increase your level of play to that higher than a typical low limit grinder?

[nutsinho]

lol at live players outthinking online players

[Fnord]

Online teaches you strong technical play. That needs to be at the heart of your game. People who go way out of line way too often to chase extra money risk becoming the fish. I find I do best when I play my A game and am paying enough attention to change a play or tip a close one every few orbits.

[swiggidy]

I view ISFs and sauces posts as very technical analysis of the game, and they're playing at a high level. They look for tendencies and exploit them.

You're doing the same. Your villains are overplaying weak hands, so you only play strong hands and value bet the shit out of them. If you're rolling 10bb/100 just keep up to 25NL. You'll run into opponents that know how to fold and you can start taking small/medium pots from them.

[Jack Sawyer]

attention all hudbots

[Deanglow]

attention all hudbots

Sup.

Also, I've played a 100 sessions or so of live 1/2 holdem, and I have never met a thinking player. No joke.