100NL: AA HU with flush board

[jimmy44]

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
9 players
Seat 1: MP2 ($176.15 in chips)
Seat 2: CO+1 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 3: CO ($102.85 in chips)
Seat 5: BU ($58.70 in chips)
Seat 6: SB ($104.15 in chips)
Seat 7: BB ($81.75 in chips)
Seat 8: UTG+1 ($146.70 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero [ AS,AH ] ($263.95 in chips)
Seat 10: MP1 ($18.55 in chips)

Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A A
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $4, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: T 8 6 ($9.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $10, Hero raises to $30, MP2 calls.

Turn: 8 ($69.5, 2 players)
Hero ????

villain was 28/12/4
No specific reads on villain. Is the standard play here bet/fold or check/fold?

[Deanglow]

what the hell are you doing preflop

[BankItDrew]

preflop is fine! don't let anyone tell you differently....

secondly, you took control of the action on the flop by check raising, so continue on with the turn. Assume villain has second best hand ie. AT or better.

[jimmy44]

Yes, I think here we can once in a while limp/call raise HU against OOP when near 200BB stacks. 3betting here will get folds most often against this opp.

secondly, you took control of the action on the flop by check raising, so continue on with the turn. Assume villain has second best hand ie. AT or better.

I suppose this would then be a bet and fold to raise, no?

[Deanglow]

preflop is fine! don't let anyone tell you differently....

secondly, you took control of the action on the flop by check raising, so continue on with the turn. Assume villain has second best hand ie. AT or better.

limp/calling preflop 175BB deep with the nuts is NOT ok.

[shazbox]

Why would you fold anyway? You're most likely ahead at the moment, and even if, for some odd reason, he has two hearts, you have the redraw for the nut flush.

[Jimmy Mac]

Preflop puts you in a horrible situation here. You're OOP with a semi strong hand and a shitload of money behind. I almost never limp AA, but if I did i would 3 bet his raise big enough so I'm committed to the pot.

[Fnord]

That was a great turn card for you, bet around the size of the pot.

[bumbling_ass]

Why would you fold anyway? You're most likely ahead at the moment, and even if, for some odd reason, he has two hearts, you have the redraw for the nut flush.

Can I play devil's advocate? I would fold to the flop bet. Here's my argument:

Pre-Flop: You laid a trap by limp calling the raise, and ended up with a HU flop. This is obviously a debatable play, but I don't think you can get into any real trouble until after the flop either way.

Flop: The flop comes all one suit, which is a pretty scary board for an overpair. I would also check here most of the time, and only opt to call a bet that is 3/4 pot or less, because you are basically on a draw here against any hand that hit this flop. With no read on your opponent, it's difficult to tell if he is bluffing, and it's generally a bad idea IMHO to put in a large flop raise in such a marginal situation when you are OOP and the opponent is showing so much strength.

If he raised with KhQh:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 313 31.62 676 68.28 1 0.10 0.317
Kh Qh 676 68.28 313 31.62 1 0.10 0.683

If he flopped a set, and doesn't want you to draw to a better hand:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 336 33.94 644 65.05 10 1.01 0.344
Ts Td 644 65.05 336 33.94 10 1.01 0.656
(the other sets yield very similar results)

It seems like if he has any sort of good hand, you're at least a 65% dog. If you decide that he is bluffing, which you have no way of knowing without a solid read, you are risking a lot of chips in a very marginal situation. You laid a trap, and ran into a bad flop. Assuming that you are playing hundreds of hands in your session, I would simply fold and wait for a better opportunity. I welcome your thoughts-

EDIT: Another viable and more aggressive option is to gain some information by betting the flop. If you are raised, you can fold. If you are called, then you can proceed with care, and determine whether or not you were trapped on the turn.

[Pelion]

people are levelling on the preflop though right?

[Deanglow]

Pre-Flop: You laid a trap by limp calling the raise, and ended up with a HU flop. This is obviously a debatable play, but I don't think you can get into any real trouble until after the flop either way.

Flop: The flop comes all one suit, which is a pretty scary board for an overpair. I would also check here most of the time, and only opt to call a bet that is 3/4 pot or less, because you are basically on a draw here against any hand that hit this flop. With no read on your opponent, it's difficult to tell if he is bluffing, and it's generally a bad idea IMHO to put in a large flop raise in such a marginal situation when you are OOP and the opponent is showing so much strength.

I'm sorry but this, and pretty much your entire post is wrong on so many levels. We appreciate the thought and effort you put into it but I have to say something about your bad logic and worse play you recommend.

175BB deep with pocket aces we are looking to get in as much preflop as possible. Raising to $4 or limp/reraising are both OK, but "setting a trap" by call/calling a raise is horrible.

As played, on the flop, we virtually have the nuts, and are not folding at any point. Original raiser bets pot, and we checkraise. The range you give Villain after this is way too tight. I'd say A10, 77, 99, JJ+ (heart or not), KQhh, set.

The turn is a great card, making it less likely he has a set. Bet 50/call a shove is best here. Bet river for value if called.

[bumbling_ass]

As played, on the flop, we virtually have the nuts, and are not folding at any point. Original raiser bets pot, and we checkraise. The range you give Villain after this is way too tight. I'd say A10, 77, 99, JJ+ (heart or not), KQhh, set.

The turn is a great card, making it less likely he has a set. Bet 50/call a shove is best here. Bet river for value if called.

I appreciate the feedback! I am new to the forum, and I am glad to learn from you experienced players. I have a comment and some questions, though-

I agree that preflop you should try and get it all in with Aces, or at least limp/reraise- What I meant in the beginning of my post is that his decision to limp-call, although not the standard play preflop, cannot cause him to lose money until after the flop. (of course, if he attempts that play everytime, he will not be best after the flop most of the time) Yes, it was not the standard play with Aces, but nonetheless, you don't make or lose money until after all the cards are dealt.

My questions follow (with all respect to your experience):

1. How is an overpair containing a heart virtually the nuts here? You have a redraw, but you are still behind to many hands-

2. Where are you getting his hand range from? Isn't the whole point of this post that we have no read on the villain? It seems to me that it is an arbitrary assignment based off of some limited statistics (I could be wrong-)

3. How does the 8c let you know that a set is unlikely?

[bjsaust]

You cant possibly restrict villian to a range of hands that only beat us.

We also picked up another 4 outs on the turn if villian happens to have a made flush, since we're now drawing to a FH as well as the nut flush if we're not already ahead anyway..

[bumbling_ass]

You cant possibly restrict villian to a range of hands that only beat us.

We also picked up another 4 outs on the turn if villian happens to have a made flush, since we're now drawing to a FH as well as the nut flush if we're not already ahead anyway..

That is a valid point. I suppose the reason that I restricted his range is because of the pot bet on the flop- If he just made a standard type c-bet of around 3/4 pot, I would be likely to put him on a wider range of hands- I'm trying to think of why he would bet so strong. We're essentially hoping (OOP) that he has JJ, QQ, KK, 77, 99 or AT. With no information about how he typically bets on the flop, how can we be confident in making a play based on this hope? If he does have a made flush we need 4-1 to draw to a better flush or FH (I guess we have implied odds here), and if he turned a boat, we are a 95% dog on the turn. Is it really that bad to treat a flop like this with caution?

[bjsaust]

I like to make my flop c-bets larger when I believe theres a good chance villian could have a draw. He might have TP or an overpair here and that pot sized bet be his way of trying to discourage draws from playing. He could have a draw himself and be semi-bluffing it (although I wouldnt expect such a big bet in that case).

Remember, we didnt call flop because we have a draw, we raised flop because we felt likely we were still ahead. His calling our flop reraise is more concerning than his c-bet, however that still doesnt mean we're behind.

[jimmy44]

As played, on the flop, we virtually have the nuts, and are not folding at any point. Original raiser bets pot, and we checkraise. The range you give Villain after this is way too tight. I'd say A10, 77, 99, JJ+ (heart or not), KQhh, set.

The turn is a great card, making it less likely he has a set. Bet 50/call a shove is best here. Bet river for value if called.

With 100B stacks, on the turn I would have pushed (ths wouldd have been a pot size bet). However, with 175BB stacks, I agree that a bet on turn was in order.

As played:
Turn: 8 ($69.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $40, villain calls.

(Here I did a small mistake as I've calculated that pot was $60.)

River: K ($149.5, 2 players)
Hero ???

Now what do you do, still bet river for value? What villain hands that we are in front of would call a river bet?

[bumbling_ass]

BJ, thanks for replying, and thanks everyone for the input! I'll do some more research. gl, jimmy