$10NL-

[tom]

I'm posting this hand for clarification on a couple things- this might go in the beginners forum, but well...I don't necessarily feel like a 'beginner' soo I'm not gonna just for that reason

First, this, like most $10NL tables I've played at are just super passive...preflop, postflop, midflop, ETC... as such I end up trying to limp stuff like this from a lot of different positions, end up staying in on a draw that seems to never come, even with (I think) correct pot odds to call(and EV..I THINK...). Is this a bad idea in general for these tables? I feel like I use up an increasing amount of money calling little shitty bets and never turn a profit on them...

so, if you would let me know is the correct way to play a hand like this, and I'm ok with you saying fold preflop if you give me some justification given the table circumstances.
Thanks




PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($9.35)
CO ($10)
Button ($6.95)
SB ($6.85)
BB ($4.15)
UTG ($1.95)
Hero ($16.50)
MP1 ($7.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J, T.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.45) 3, 6, 2 (5 players)
BB bets $0.1, Hero calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, BB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Turn: ($1.65) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Pp(AUT) checks.

River: ($1.65) T (3 players)
BB bets $1, Hero folds, Pp(AUT) folds.

Final Pot: $1.65

[martindcx1e]

You should fold preflop. You are out of position and have no initiative. Flushes are really obvious, and you aren't going to make a ton of money in a limped pot with a J-high flush normally.

[daven]

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J, T.
1 fold, Hero folds (maybe call or even raise from CO or button) - cos you'd be folding if someone raises behind, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, BB checks.

[swiggidy]

People call too much and don't adjust. You don't need to add suited connectors to your repertoire.

There is no hand/position combo you should be open limping at 10NL. If you don't want to raise fold. JTs, 9Ts look pretty, but you'll get more value from KQo at microstakes.

[frosst]

and just because everyone else is limping doesnt mean you should. there's a reason they're playing 10nl.

[mrhappy333]

If you are at a super passive table you need to start raising everything untill your opponents adjust. Then you readjust, play your good hands and you will get alot mor action when you raise your premo's and they hit.

TJs UTG = fold preflop for me usually.

[tom]

I guess I do end up raising quite a bit, most of the time it gets folded around. And typically I get a loooooooot of "tom wins pot of $.25". Even when I get 1 or 2 callers, rarely do I get anybody to call a cbet, which is sweet, I guess, but when my cbets are ~3/4 pot size(after raising pf) and somebody actually has a hand, I end up losing more money on that one hand than I make from all the damn blinds and cbets I take down (of course no always, but way to often it seems like)

which is when I end up saying fuck it and start limping stuff like this looking for an 'un-obvious' hand to make some good profit off of...

I keep seeing people averaging 3-10 BB/100hands, and I feel like if I kept tight and just took down the blinds, etc, I'd probably be doing this... so maybe it's just the limit I'm at? looking at my $ with just .30 cents added to my stack per 100 hands and being excited just seems silly, but am I interpreting this right? If so I guess it's just more reason to chill out and grind till I get the BR to move up.

edit: got off on a tangent, but....really? not get into a pot unless you raise? this seems excessive to me.

[d0zer]

....really? not get into a pot unless you raise? this seems excessive to me.

It, combined with c-betting is actually quite profitable long term, especially if you play proper positional poker (loosening up closer to the button).

There's a lot of good reasons for it, but one of my favorite is that it throws some players totally off when you only ever open raise, and they start to not take anything you do seriously and will look you up with junk when you've actually got a premium hand. Loose passives usually consider "playing back at you" to be just calling your preflop raises, which is great when you've got AQ and they're holding QT & the flop comes Q24.

C-betting a lot accomplishes this also, so while you may only be winning smaller pots, it sets you up for bigger ones later. For c-betting to be profitable in a HU situation, it only needs to work 25%-50% of the time (depending on the size of your average c-bet), and with position I find it works far more often than that.

Many seasoned veterans here suggest getting your preflop raise% up to the point where you're only limping maybe 2-3% of hands, and raising the other 10-12%. I'm closer to that than when I started, but still have a bit of a weakness for limping with a lot of limpers behind, and SB completion which is keeping my limp closer to 4% of hands.

[Erpel]

I guess I do end up raising quite a bit, most of the time it gets folded around. And typically I get a loooooooot of "tom wins pot of $.25". Even when I get 1 or 2 callers, rarely do I get anybody to call a cbet, which is sweet, I guess, but when my cbets are ~3/4 pot size(after raising pf) and somebody actually has a hand, I end up losing more money on that one hand than I make from all the damn blinds and cbets I take down (of course no always, but way to often it seems like)

which is when I end up saying fuck it and start limping stuff like this looking for an 'un-obvious' hand to make some good profit off of...

I keep seeing people averaging 3-10 BB/100hands, and I feel like if I kept tight and just took down the blinds, etc, I'd probably be doing this... so maybe it's just the limit I'm at? looking at my $ with just .30 cents added to my stack per 100 hands and being excited just seems silly, but am I interpreting this right? If so I guess it's just more reason to chill out and grind till I get the BR to move up.

edit: got off on a tangent, but....really? not get into a pot unless you raise? this seems excessive to me.

I sometimes see the world the same way - then I try to fix my thinking.

Speaking of blinds. Let's assume you can steal blinds from 3 positions (SB, BTN, CO), the table is weak/tight and you manage to steal blinds once per orbit on average. This gives you 1.5bb profit per 10 hands - that's 15 big blinds profit per 100 hands from stealing alone! (I think PT lists big bets rather than big blinds so it's listed as 7.5BB/100).

If we agree that 3-10BB/100 is solid winning poker it is worth considering how big a part of it stealing can be.

To follow on to the previous respondent - when I play super tight and not positionally aware I play so few hands that everyone knows I have something when I play and they don't play back at me. I never get paid off. When I play super tight but try to steal with air when I'm in position I play enough hands, and enough questionable hands that people will play back at me - then I fold air and collect with my big hands.

Another thing to consider is that if you don't raise a hand you have no idea what the villain has. He might be a weak player who limps AA and 76s equally. If you put in healthy raises he'll fold a lot of crap and you can develop a realistic expectation of what he might be holding and determine with some chance of success whether the flop helped him or not.

When I play a table full of super tight people I tend to steal even in the position before CO. It's shocking how often it actually works. In extreme cases I can have %attempt to steal above 60. (it counts only SB, BTN and CO positions for this stat)