$25NL - Kings versus Lagtard

[GatorJH]

villian was 76/27/0.88 through 80 hands. I had pushed him off of several hands earlier but this is the first time he played a hand this hard. What is the best line here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($38.65)
CO ($26.50)
Button ($4.15)
SB ($27.85)
BB ($47.90)
UTG ($4)
Hero ($47.90)
MP1 ($17.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, K.
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 5 folds, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.10) 6, 5, 5 (3 players)
BB bets $0.5, UTG folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2.50.

Turn: ($9.10) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $19, Hero ??????

[PapalRage]

i raise more preflop and raise more on this drawy flop. villain's line is retarded if he has you beat, so i think i shove and expect to see 78/76 a lot here. i guess villain can have a 5x that wanted to slow play but got scared by the 7, but i just cant give a 76/27 credit.

[badgers]

arrrr in.

[Fnord]

I stack off, but I'm not happy about it.

[ponyboy]

Personally I'd put him on A5 or A6, maybe suited. Since he just called the flop bet I'd say he has a 5 or 6 and the turn card scared him so he's trying to give you bad odds to call to see one more card.

A bet like that would make me think he doesn't want you to call but I would have a hard time pushing with two pair and only a few outs to a boat. However, I know this is one of my leaks.

[GatorJH]

Thanks for the input guys - I was trying to not be results oriented when I threw my mouse across the room after this hand, but figured I would post it to make sure I made the right move.

It seems like big PP's are where I lose most of my big hands and although in the early stages of my cash games I was certainly making huge mistakes in overvaluing them, this didn't seem like that case.

fwiw, my range for villain after the turn was A7, A6, A5, 87, 76 or 65 with a slight possibility that he had 66-TT (he almost always opened with a minraise if he had a pp or broadways of any sort).

Even I was surprised at this one.


Turn: ($9.10) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $19, Hero raises to $43.9, BB calls $24.90 (All-In).

River: ($-1.42) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $53

Results in white below:
BB has 4d 3h (straight, seven high).
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: BB wins $96.90.

[nutsinho]

i beat him into the pot with all my monies

[Fnord]

i beat him into the pot with all my monies

O'RLY? I would think you're capable of a fold here.

In isolation it's an easy call, with more information I might find a fold.

Certainly in the live game I play this is a painfully easy fold.

[GatorJH]

0.88 - This is what almost (an maybe should have?) led me to a fold. This guy was a major calling station but I had not seen him put in a big bet like this for the first 80 hands.

I am still working on figuring out these sorts of players and plays but in the end felt like it was 50/50 that he either had a tp or mp type of hand or a set/str8 type of hand.

So I guess the real question is should I be pushing such a thin edge against people like this?

[Fnord]

0.88 - This is what almost (an maybe should have?) led me to a fold. This guy was a major calling station but I had not seen him put in a big bet like this for the first 80 hands.

This information makes it a fold.

Player profile is someone who will gamble pre-flop (where you're rarely too too big of a dog anyway) but bets his hand strength post-flop with perhaps some stabbing thrown in and a lot of terrible calls. Sound like him? Lots of guys at the cardroom play like this.

Full ring it's harder to laydown because someone else will probably end up breaking this fool and it's soooooo easy to play soooo many hands against him. In 6 max I don't sweat it because I know the chips are likely to come back home when I have a real edge.

[ponyboy]

These are the guys I find hardest to play against. They have such a wide range it's almost impossible to put them on a hand. If I only had two pair I would probably lay that down.

[Fnord]

These are the guys I find hardest to play against.

Why? They let you know when they have a big hand.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, important thing is, if you've got a read, go with it. Here we have a classic case of a loose passive getting very aggressive. That should send up some big red flags we shouldn't ignore.

Of course, the next question is whether 80 hands is enough to make such a read, but then thats over an hour at the table and he's played 3/4 of the hands, so we should know how he plays by now beyond the stats.

[Keilah]

These are the guys I find hardest to play against.

Rofl at this. These guys are your source of income.

I find a fold here exactly because of the 0.88. Seeing someone with <1 shove in this spot with less then trips is so rare. Unless I see them get wild at some other time I'm folding this.

[PapalRage]

i think the 0.88 can be misleading because he sees so many flops. because he sees so many flops, he will make a lot of bottom pairs, flush draws, straight draws and other trash that he will be check/calling. this really drives your AF down which can make it seem low compared to the AF for a 'normal' player with 15/12 stats or whatever. just something to think about, i could be overweighting the impact.

[BankItDrew]

i shove

but obv u posted this hand because he had u beat....don't be results oriented... most of the time we have villain dominated in this spot.

[nutsinho]

In isolation it's an easy call, with more information I might find a fold.

Certainly in the live game I play this is a painfully easy fold.

I agree. And I didn't read the 0.88 AF part earlier, so with that information I also think that this is a fold. Whoops.

[GatorJH]

...because he sees so many flops, he will make a lot of bottom pairs, flush draws, straight draws and other trash that he will be check/calling.

You just validated why this is a fold. Villain isn't check/calling here. He is betting and betting strong. IMO, he is basically telling me "OMG!!! I have a huge hand!!!"

[GatorJH]

i shove

but obv u posted this hand because he had u beat....don't be results oriented... most of the time we have villain dominated in this spot.

I am truly not being results oriented here and thought about this for almost the entire time before shoving. Villain here had a definite pattern in his betting; c/c till he hits big then bet large after that. This should have been enough of a tell for me to know that I was drawing slim here.

I posted this hand because I am still having a problem overvaluing my big PP's and therefore I am trying to get a better feel for situations where they are good (and how to play those situations) versus situations where I should be able to let them go.

IMO, this is a situation where, based on my read, I should have let this go.