Just when you think there's relief

[Squeaky_Midget1]

Gas just hit $4.50/gallon here in NC and climbing...how's everyone else looking out there?

[The_OG_Rocco]

Gas just hit $4.50/gallon here in NC and climbing...how's everyone else looking out there?

In DFW its still cheaper by about .50 per gallon. But I can't agree with you more. Something needs to be done to these greedy, rich oil bastards!

[BennyLaRue]

Gas just hit $4.50/gallon here in NC and climbing...how's everyone else looking out there?

In DFW its still cheaper by about .50 per gallon. But I can't agree with you more. Something needs to be done to these greedy, rich oil bastards!

Yeah. Those fucking Libs!

[spoonitnow]

Gas just hit $4.50/gallon here in NC and climbing...how's everyone else looking out there?

In DFW its still cheaper by about .50 per gallon. But I can't agree with you more. Something needs to be done to these greedy, rich oil bastards!

Yeah. Those fucking Libs!

Obvious level

[BennyLaRue]

Obvious level

Probably, but even Colbert needs an assist or two.

I'm John Stockton.

[ATOTHEC101]

A good gas price complaints thread isnt complete without a brit pointing out the fact that we pay a shitload more than you for petrol i.e. about $2.10 per litre! pffft.

[Squeaky_Midget1]

Not really a complaint thread, but with the hurricane baring down on TX gas prices are skyrocketing here. Just seein if everyone was getting the same thing. Last I heard was $4.99 in the city!

[BankItDrew]

it's still cheaper than beer so i don't know why people complain about this ...

[bode]

it's still cheaper than beer so i don't know why people complain about this ...

apples, meet oranges.

[jyms]

it's still cheaper than beer so i don't know why people complain about this ...

Because if you knew anything about economics you would know that every little price jump costs us $1000's a year more in just about everything we buy.

[d0zer]

@ people taking drew's post at face value.

[jyms]

probably but i have no sense of humour lately over gas companys

[Squeaky_Midget1]

Shit's getting serious!
Just hit $5.89 here in NC. Calling for $7-10/gallon by the end of the week. WTF!! Guess I won't be selling any cars for a minute!

[givememyleg]

wow that's pretty high

[Hawk]

[Monty3038]

Glad I filled up for $3.79 a gallon in Ohio this morning.

[spoonitnow]

A good gas price complaints thread isnt complete without a brit pointing out the fact that we pay a shitload more than you for petrol i.e. about $2.10 per litre! pffft.

You also probably drive a lot less.

[Ragnar4]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

[Jack Sawyer]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

finally, a smart response

[spoonitnow]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

finally, a response that is totally unrealistic and wouldn't change anything since we would be right back to it a week later

[Jack Sawyer]

so what is your suggestion on this issue, spoon?

[BankItDrew]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

This will happen one day because breaking points exist.

[vqc]

and i thought gas at 3.70 in la was expensive

[spoonitnow]

so what is your suggestion on this issue, spoon?

Work on the long term: Encourage abortion, adoption, and having your children spayed or neutered. Make suicide legal. Make voting mandatory by penalty of community service.

Work on the relatively short term: Put a $1000 reward on anyone's head who drives a vehicle that gets less than 30 miles/gallon and make it legal to kill them if they do not have a work permit for such vehicle. Every five years increase this limit 5 miles/gallon.

Work on the short term: Instead of a retarded ass stimulus check that doesn't help anybody do shit, give out vouchers for mopeds.

It doesn't matter what we do though. When oil is gone, the same families will have moved on to being in control of whatever our next major energy source is.

Edit: I'm 100% serious about everything I said here.

[Monty3038]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

Fiscally destroying a company that traditionally makes 2-6% profit is stupidity at its finest.

Destroying a company that makes 50% profit, that makes sense.

If you want to lower the cost by lowering demand, that is fine, just don't do it with the motive of destroying a corporation who provides a valuable product at a reasonable profit. If you destroy them, you destroy the entire economy.

[Monty3038]

so what is your suggestion on this issue, spoon?

Work on the long term: Encourage abortion, adoption, and having your children spayed or neutered. Make suicide legal. Make voting mandatory by penalty of community service.

Work on the relatively short term: Put a $1000 reward on anyone's head who drives a vehicle that gets less than 30 miles/gallon and make it legal to kill them if they do not have a work permit for such vehicle. Every five years increase this limit 5 miles/gallon.

Work on the short term: Instead of a retarded ass stimulus check that doesn't help anybody do shit, give out vouchers for mopeds.

It doesn't matter what we do though. When oil is gone, the same families will have moved on to being in control of whatever our next major energy source is.

Edit: I'm 100% serious about everything I said here.

While Spoon is an expert at poker and knows more than I will ever know about poker, I have to disagree with him here...

Abortion... won't help gas/oil shortages (if they even exist).
Adoption... a worthy cause, promote it heavily. In the process of adopting right now.
Children spayed or neutered or otherwise controlling the population... well welcome to China.
As towards the gas mileage thing... we drive luxury because we can afford to. When it becomes too expensive for people to drive luxury vehicles, they resort to small vehicles. Restricting people's freedom to do so is only the first in a long line of steps towards goverment control, which I vehemently despise. Don't worry about what someone else drives, change your lifestyle and let them live their own... also, the fact that someone (me) drives an SUV a distance to work, doesn't affect you, it affects me.
Gas prices affect the majority of people through higher costs of goods... if we quit buying the goods, and the gas, the price goes down due to lower demand... supply and demand is the only way economies work.
Mopeds aren't practical in society. In cities, walking and mass transport are effective means. In the suburbs/country where I live and work, they are not practical.
The fact that some profit more than others from energy sources is called capitalism. It is the basis of a free and very workable society. The fact that some are better at poker than others is also called capitalism, you capitalize on the weaker players. Since you are not willing to change the rules of poker to make everyone equal (communism) and everyone wins the same amount/percentage of hands, no differences, you can't be saying you want the economy to work that way.

Regardless, this is a friendly debate. I work very hard for my $72,000 per year and enjoy driving my car to work (27 miles to the gallon) my SUV when I want to (21 mpg) and my motorcycle when weather permits (50mpg). I also love spending time online wasting electricity, love air conditioning, love oil heat for the cost (thoughI now have gas because of moving) and I also don't buy the global warming crap. I'm a true capitalist because if I want something I don't care what it costs, I'll work to get it.

If I offended anyone... too bad... I'm no where near politically correct and don't care about it.

[spoonitnow]

so what is your suggestion on this issue, spoon?

Work on the long term: Encourage abortion, adoption, and having your children spayed or neutered. Make suicide legal. Make voting mandatory by penalty of community service.

Work on the relatively short term: Put a $1000 reward on anyone's head who drives a vehicle that gets less than 30 miles/gallon and make it legal to kill them if they do not have a work permit for such vehicle. Every five years increase this limit 5 miles/gallon.

Work on the short term: Instead of a retarded ass stimulus check that doesn't help anybody do shit, give out vouchers for mopeds.

It doesn't matter what we do though. When oil is gone, the same families will have moved on to being in control of whatever our next major energy source is.

Edit: I'm 100% serious about everything I said here.

While Spoon is an expert at poker and knows more than I will ever know about poker, I have to disagree with him here...

Abortion... won't help gas/oil shortages (if they even exist).
Adoption... a worthy cause, promote it heavily. In the process of adopting right now.
Children spayed or neutered or otherwise controlling the population... well welcome to China.
As towards the gas mileage thing... we drive luxury because we can afford to. When it becomes too expensive for people to drive luxury vehicles, they resort to small vehicles. Restricting people's freedom to do so is only the first in a long line of steps towards goverment control, which I vehemently despise. Don't worry about what someone else drives, change your lifestyle and let them live their own... also, the fact that someone (me) drives an SUV a distance to work, doesn't affect you, it affects me.
Gas prices affect the majority of people through higher costs of goods... if we quit buying the goods, and the gas, the price goes down due to lower demand... supply and demand is the only way economies work.
Mopeds aren't practical in society. In cities, walking and mass transport are effective means. In the suburbs/country where I live and work, they are not practical.
The fact that some profit more than others from energy sources is called capitalism. It is the basis of a free and very workable society. The fact that some are better at poker than others is also called capitalism, you capitalize on the weaker players. Since you are not willing to change the rules of poker to make everyone equal (communism) and everyone wins the same amount/percentage of hands, no differences, you can't be saying you want the economy to work that way.

Regardless, this is a friendly debate. I work very hard for my $72,000 per year and enjoy driving my car to work (27 miles to the gallon) my SUV when I want to (21 mpg) and my motorcycle when weather permits (50mpg). I also love spending time online wasting electricity, love air conditioning, love oil heat for the cost (thoughI now have gas because of moving) and I also don't buy the global warming crap. I'm a true capitalist because if I want something I don't care what it costs, I'll work to get it.

If I offended anyone... too bad... I'm no where near politically correct and don't care about it.

Just to clarify, the solutions I proposed as long-term have to do with increasing energy demands overall, not just oil, a.k.a. our (as in the human race's) exponentially increasing population. I put these in bold above. It's something very few people seriously consider because it seems wrong somehow to limit our reproduction. But the simple fact is that our population growth will exceed the growth of our resources if it hasn't already and at that point the population will regulate itself if government doesn't decide to do it before then.

My problems with fuel efficiency aren't necessarily with the people who drive them, but the fact that our society is largely dependent on a finite supply of fossil fuels, yet we make relatively little effort to stretch those fuels as far as we can. And even if prices go up to keep profits constant, it would still stretch our resources much farther than they can go at this current point, which can't be a bad thing.

As towards the gas mileage thing... we drive luxury because we can afford to.

This particular sentence is an example of how capitalism could be improved upon. We are taught to think that luxury is a good thing, but the only difference is that luxury has worse gas mileage. Surely it could only be better to build similarly cars that have twice the gas mileage, and require you to match the amount you pay in gas each year to some charity. You would spend the same, keeping the beloved "luxury", but double our effective resources and help people at the same time. This is a fantasy scenario, but I think it relays my point.

I think it's possible you disagree with me because I didn't really elaborate at all and my answer seemed like a list of bullshit, which some of it rather obviously was.

[Ragnar4]

Less time driving, and more time walking causes oil prices to go down because they can't move their liquid gold at that price. A concerted effort would fiscally destroy the oil companies if we hung on for something like a week.

finally, a response that is totally unrealistic and wouldn't change anything since we would be right back to it a week later

In 2001 America tried to react to soaring gas prices with a "National gas out day" For 2 months spam mail went out, websites were dedicated to the idea and a few politicians even supported it. The idea? Don't buy gas for a day. Even though I disagreed with the idea on it's level under the same argument spoon, I didn't buy gas that day.

For my argument and ethics class in College I decided the next year to run case against that idea for my Parli debate squirrell case (A case that is really hard to pin down, you use it against solid but aggressive opponents, so it comes out of left field and they don't know how to attack it).

Problem is, after some pretty exhaustive research, I discovered through, charts and analysis, that for the next 3 months we saw a 25 cent decrease for our gas prices across the board. On average a 1.50 per gallon rate came down 16.5 percent.

If my opponents had that piece of evidence, they would have destroyed me. I still ran the case, but I only ran it once, and won.

I'm not entirely sure how you can argue that Oil companies only make 2-6% profit when they cleared the kinds of dollars that they cleared last quarter... But I haven't looked it up. I could imagine a 12-20% profit with the kinds of numbers that you posted, and only the fat-cats would suffer with a national gas out for a week.

In fact the weakest link in the idea is the consumer.

Gas sales were only down 41% that day.

[Jack Sawyer]

would you believe me if I tell you that to this day there are some supposedly smart people (with PHD's and shit) who believe that fossil fuels are infinite here on earth?

[wesrman]

would you believe me if I tell you that to this day there are some supposedly smart people (with PHD's and shit) who believe that fossil fuels are infinite here on earth?

They are. All this peak oil shit is propaganda.

[spoonitnow]

would you believe me if I tell you that to this day there are some supposedly smart people (with PHD's and shit) who believe that fossil fuels are infinite here on earth?

lol yes

[Ash256]

Jeez . . you guys have it good compared to here, where we're heading into an heavy recession, petrol is £1.25/litre and the GBP is rapidly losing value after our Prime Minister kindly sold 60% of our gold to russians at what was almost a 20 year market low . .

[Monty3038]

Ash256, yes we do have it good here for gas prices, but there are a lot of reasons for recession and such, just not your petrol prices.

Jack, yes I would believe it. Here is one thought also... what is oil made of? That process continues. The supply is inifite on the earth as long as the earth continues to function as a closed ecosystem the way it does... the problem with that inifinity is time. The time it takes for oil/gas/petroleum products to be produced in nature will not keep up with our removal of it. So the supply technically is infinite, in a sense. Though that isn't what you meant

Spoon, what my problem with your luxury statement is... Why would it be right to government mandate that I spend money on a charity? Then it isn't a charity, it is a tax. I know it was a fantasy scenario, but I can't think of one way to make it work where you take from one to supply another and can make that fair? I'm just trying to understand... again relating it to poker, why is it fair that you win so much and I don't? Shouldn't you hit a win 'quota' and then be forced to lose to me?

And lastly, yes, Oil companies make huge profits... 2-6% of a billion is a lot more than 2-6% of say $50,000. The fact of what the total is doesn't matter. Here is what matters. You I am sure have insurance or a 401k or other stock/financial plans. Those plans/assets are often tied to the oil companies... and if you cut their profits you hurt yourself. Also, you reduce the incentive for them to be in business. While this is basic, it is the root of the issue. With thousands of employees, hundreds of thousands if not millions of shareholders, Oil companies are in it for profit... as they should be. They need to make a profit to satisfy all of those people. Without shareholders, employees, they go out of business. Then supply dwindles because fewer producers, thus prices rise even more drastically... everything is interconnected. Controlling one thing won't control the others except to have the opposite effect.

And anyway, even if the oil companies are say making 10% on their products... do we want them to stop?

[Jack Sawyer]

For clarification:

What is oil made of?

Carbon and Hydrogen

Crude oil was made over millions of years from tiny plants and animals, called plankton. The plankton on the left would form oil in about 150 million years time if the sea bed is not disturbed.

The plankton that lived in the Jurassic period made our crude oil.

This was the time of the dinosaurs. It was about 180,000,000 years ago.

When plankton die, they fall to the bottom of the sea.

The plankton are trapped under many layers of sand and mud. Over millions of years, the dead animals and plants got buried deeper and deeper. The heat and pressure gradually turned the mud into rock and the dead animals and plants into oil and gas.

Oil is formed over millions of years. It is held in tiny spaces in underground rock, like water in a sponge.

Some rocks have tiny spaces called pores. The rocks with these pores can hold the oil like a sponge.

The cap rock stops the oil from escaping.

Over millions of years, the rocks fold. Sometimes they form a dome shape that can catch the oil.

Oil can float up through the tiny spaces in the rock. We call these tiny spaces pores and we say that the rock is porous. This takes millions of years.

The oil can't get through the cap rock and is trapped in the dome of rock underneath.

The cap rock stops the oil from escaping.

The rock layer underneath has tiny spaces, or pores, in it. Although it is solid, it can hold the oil like a sponge.

The oil companies can drill into this rock to recover the oil.

Now, something formed over millions of years, is being rapidly consumed in hundreds of years (considering heavy oil consumption, and heavy CO emissions, started around the industrial revolution)...

As analogy, lets say I'm thirsty. I have a cup that magically generates water at a certain rate. Now, I drink and I drink. If I drink faster than this "regeneration rate" makes the water, I will eventually not have any more water to drink. Amirite?

HOW CAN OIL BE INFINITE?

[bode]

jack, he never said oil was infinite. he said, in theory, natural resources are "infinite" but not regenerative enough to keep up with the pace we are consuming them. so yes, these resources may be technically "infinite", but we would have to wait xxx,xxx,xxx years to be able to claim them again which is obv. not going to work. its basically just the carbon cycle.

[Squeaky_Midget1]

Stock market got rocked today and oil dropped to less than $100/barrel. How much do ya'll think this will affect pump prices?

[2_Thumbs_Up]

Stock market got rocked today and oil dropped to less than $100/barrel. How much do ya'll think this will affect pump prices?

The bank crisis is HUGE. Maybe that should have another thread though.

[Monty3038]

jack, he never said oil was infinite. he said, in theory, natural resources are "infinite" but not regenerative enough to keep up with the pace we are consuming them. so yes, these resources may be technically "infinite", but we would have to wait xxx,xxx,xxx years to be able to claim them again which is obv. not going to work. its basically just the carbon cycle.

Exactly.

[bode]

jack, he never said oil was infinite. he said, in theory, natural resources are "infinite" but not regenerative enough to keep up with the pace we are consuming them. so yes, these resources may be technically "infinite", but we would have to wait xxx,xxx,xxx years to be able to claim them again which is obv. not going to work. its basically just the carbon cycle.

Exactly.

not that i feel this line of thinking is correct or anything, but an argument can be made that way i guess.

[AHiltz]

Here in NS we have regulated prices. When oil was at $130 a barrel our prices were $1.33/litre. The price went down to $100 a barrel but our pump prices didn't budge. Ike rolls in and our prices rise 9 cents/litre. Ike passses, oil is down to $90some a barrel and our prices haven't moved.

Then on the news this morning the douche bag minister says that the prices are managed by keeping an eye on the price per barrel on the US marketes over a 5 day period. Well, where in the fuck was the price drop when we went from $130 to $100????????

[Monty3038]

Ok, so of course the supply of oil is not infinite... it is in essence but we won't live to see it replenish.

What I am getting at, what I would like to see, is a lack of hysteria and hype.

Everyone stop with the 'world is failing', 'global warming will kill us in 10 days' crap, get down to facts. Facts that are indisputable and proven.

Once the facts are actually brought out, and both sides then state their opinion, people can make an intelligent decision. Not just snap off what they read in the media and such.

Good luck up there in NS AHiltz, I'd recommend you do everything you can to get rid of government control of ANY pricing... get back to a free market. It will hurt initially but in the long run will make your economy work better.

[gabe]

i had some oil expert hippy dude at one of my wsop tables this summer, and he explained that we pretty much have infinite oil, but after a while it will be so inefficient to get that we'll need a new source of energy. i think he was saying something like it takes x barrel of oil now to get 100 barrels, and in some number of years it might take 10x barrels.

[ProZachNation]

Everyone stop with the 'world is failing', 'global warming will kill us in 10 days' crap, get down to facts. Facts that are indisputable and proven.

... well what we had/have is one side saying global warming doesn't exist etc, and the other side saying yes it does and we need to take action.

Fact is climate change (global warming is only part of it all) is happening and we should be taking actions now. Waiting is only making the problem worse. Yes if we ignore it the world will not end in ten days, but by ignoring it now we are making it worse later.

But this deserves a whole other thread.


I drove home and back to school filling up twice during Ike (ouch) glad I went from a Grand Marquis to a Cavalier my gas mileage is probably twice as good.

[Jack Sawyer]

On the greenhouse gasses / global warmin / global climate change / etc / front...

Point #1: CO2 is the most famous greenhouse gas, but its not the most effective. That dubious honour belongs to Methane. It is approximately 20x as powerful as CO2 as a greenhouse agent on the ozone. The, well rather exagerrated, effects on the ozone can be seen if you take Venus for example: its the closest definition to hell we have in the real world. Its atmosphere is comprised heavily of Methane and CO2, the pressures on that planet, because of the composition of the atmosphere, can destroy anything in a matter of seconds. It also rains sulfuric acid.


Back on topic; in certain parts of Syberia, there are massive massive huge enormous naturally occuring deposits of methane, which, because of the temperature of the region, is or rather should be perpetually frozen.

However, in recent times, the average temperature of the earth has been steadily rising. Of course, the average temperature of these specific parts have been rising too. You can see where I'm getting at.


Point #2: The outer layers of Greenland have been steadily disappearing. Consequently, many smaller islands have begun feeling the effects of the rising sea level already. The Maldives will be nothing but an underwater dream in 15 years time, at the current pace.


Sitting back and laughing, or worse, not caring, because "its not that hot" and "people are making too much of a fuss about it", and "the earth's temperature has changed sooo many times before, who cares if it does so again?", is a fairly naive and nonsensical approach. Ostrich's policy, if you get it.

The earth's climate has indeed gone through many transformations naturally in the past, but the key issue and factor here is time: the changes are occurring at a much much absurdly faster rate than it would naturally, thanks to man's hand.

[ProZachNation]

Jack another good point is how the precipitation in Africa has changed in recent years, droughts are worse than they have ever been and previously inhabitable places are uninhabitable. None of which can be good for tensions there.