Britain Starts Their National ID Bullshit

[spoonitnow]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081125/...identity_cards

Does this bother anyone besides me?

[flomo]

it would but they will only get around to doing the foreigners(read terrorists)

it is britain--they are not racists

[spoonitnow]

it would but they will only get around to doing the foreigners(read terrorists)

it is britain--they are not racists

But it's setting the wheels in motion for a wider target group.

[a500lbgorilla]

this bothers me too. There's just way too much wrong with how the world conducts life

[Jack Sawyer]

yup, it should bother everyone with a normally functioning brain

first sentence in the article, the greaseword "terrorism" was already applied

[Ash256]

it would but they will only get around to doing the foreigners(read terrorists)

it is britain--they are not racists

But it's setting the wheels in motion for a wider target group.

The wider target group has been the well-documented plan from the start:-

http://ips.gov.uk/identity/scheme-what.asp


I for one will certainly not be getting one until forced to do so.

The awkward thing is that the gov have promised that there will be no penalties for not carrying an ID card but I guarantee that in the future you won't be able to buy booze, cigs, knives and possibly fuel without one.


I'd get some fake docs from a bloke who knows a bloke who knows a bloke if I could justify the shit it's possible to get into with anything tangible.

I look forward to the day when counterfeits are being mass-produced on the black market.

[Thunder]

Damn right it bothers!

[WillburForce]

you won't be able to buy booze, cigs, knives and possibly fuel without one.

could be a good thing no?

I'm not sure where I stand on it. I've got nothing to fear because I'm not a criminal. And if it help prevents terrorism it's surely a good thing. But I'm not sure how it would.

[Thunder]

Wilbur will think I am picking on him but I already posted about this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...70.html#791413

I've got nothing to fear because I'm not a criminal. And if it help prevents terrorism it's surely a good thing.

This is a severely retarded phrase - misguided and fallacious - and is used by those who want to imply that NOT agreeing is tantamount to being guilty. It's a form of hypnotic bind and you hear similar examples all the time: "as you know", "I am sure you will agree", "most people, "any right minded person", "the vast majority". All these phrases put pressure on people to concur - even if they have no knowledge on the matter. Politicians love these trance statements, like universal quantifiers and lost performatives.

In the above link, I kept it as short as possible, and there is plenty more to be said, but it gives enough of a flavour as to how dangerous such a mindset can be and where it has led to, repeatedly, throughout human history. There has never been a credible defence of such a statement.

Take it to its logical conclusion and Orwell's polemic becomes real in every sense, with a TV screen in your home monitoring everything. And why not? After all, there are already CCTV cameras on the streets on which you're filmed 300 times a day, so it's not much of a change and it will help fight terrorists even more. And anyway, if you're not guilty of anything then you've nothing to fear.

And no, it won't help fight terrorism. That is just a ploy to get the national ID cards into circulation. The weak minded lap it up. Just as they did the 2.5% cut in VAT this week. Once introduced then they can be extended to everyone.

[Thunder]

I had a similar conversation with an equally misguided person about speed cameras. Like all good sheep, he regurgitated the emotion heavy imagery that had been fed to him.

"Why do you complain about speed cameras? Do you have something to hide? Maybe it's me but I don't want to send a child bouncing across a car bonnet..."

"Child" and "bouncing" are emotionally weighted - designed to invoke a reaction. When there is little genuine reason for doing something, this type of rhetoric is brought out. Bush and Iraq etc.

That speed is constantly revealed to be not the killer that it is made out to be is ignored. Equally ominous is the methodology behind it. Hiding speed cameras behind trees is NOT to act as a deterrent - it's to prey. Snapping someone has NOT saved a child's life at that moment in time. A far more effective - and PROVEN - method is to be clearly visible. Hiding behind a hedge waiting to pounce - is prejudging someone as a criminal who needs to be snared.

"If you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear" but being treated as a virtual prisoner in your own land, permanently watched, checked, bagged and tagged is not the way of the Free and, whatever those who want to introduce such measures may say (with their emotive tones, remember) are used only to inhibit and oppress.

[spoonitnow]

I'm not sure where I stand on it. I've got nothing to fear because I'm not a criminal. And if it help prevents terrorism it's surely a good thing.

It's pretty scary if this post wasn't a level.

[Thunder]

It's pretty scary if this post wasn't a level.

+1.

[Jack Sawyer]

Thunder, you are right on on all accounts.

Why hide the cameras? If you approach at lightspeed, but then you see the damn speed camera, maybe even highlighted with signs "THERE IS A SPEED CAMERA IN 500m" like they do in Japan, you will slow down and not speed up.

The only purpose of speed cameras, their raison d'être as implemented, is to generate cash and not make traffic safer. This is a very important distinction IMO.

[Thunder]

Ty.

[sarbox68]

Thunder, you are right on on all accounts.

Why hide the cameras? If you approach at lightspeed, but then you see the damn speed camera, maybe even highlighted with signs "THERE IS A SPEED CAMERA IN 500m" like they do in Japan, you will slow down and not speed up.

The only purpose of speed cameras, their raison d'être as implemented, is to generate cash and not make traffic safer. This is a very important distinction IMO.

I posted a similar sentiment months ago about redlight cameras. And with the exception of Jack everybody was like "ZOMFG... you bastard ... red light cameras good... no dead minivans!!!!"

I will repeat in this context. They do not have a g-dmuthaf-king thing to do with safety. They are there to generate revenue, with the unintended consequence of increasing potential risk through the behaviors they DO influence.

[kevster]

Spot on Spoon, it's bullshit alright but don't worry just yet.

They've been talking about this for a long long time and it hasn't happened yet.

And not forgetting, this is England, they''ll fuck it up big style when they do introduce it.

[sarbox68]

Are we sure this isn't just another attempt to FINALLY get rid of all the Pakis?

[Ash256]

you won't be able to buy booze, cigs, knives and possibly fuel without one.

could be a good thing no?

I'm not sure where I stand on it. I've got nothing to fear because I'm not a criminal. And if it help prevents terrorism it's surely a good thing. But I'm not sure how it would.

It won't help prevent terrorism. That's just nulab propaganda.


Seeing as you have nothing to hide, mind if I come round your place and root through all your possessions?

Thanks

[kevster]

Are we sure this isn't just another attempt to FINALLY get rid of all the Pakis?

Strike please mods

[Jack Sawyer]

Another fucked up shit is the CCTV thing. Don't even get me started on that.
It is Orwellian indeed

[SaulPaul]

just be glad u dont live in England. Theres 55 million of us, and 4 million cameras. Thats a camera for every 14 people

[sarbox68]

Are we sure this isn't just another attempt to FINALLY get rid of all the Pakis?

Strike please mods

Dude relax... sarcasm from having lived there and seeing the local reaction to the change in demographics when the commonwealth dissolved....

...and usually when the "terrorism" label is tossed around as justification for policy in predominantly anglo countries, somehow it usually ends up being most efficiently applied to people from elsewhere.....

[wufwugy]

so many opinions, so little facts

also ever since ive actually been learning about reality it always struck me as weird that the public is so easily frightened of and adversary to ID cards. we already have many ID card systems, and in what ways are they harming us? perhaps many were heavily against what ID systems we have now. so many factors and questions to analyze before we understand this.

[Warpe]

"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."

[Jack Sawyer]

...and usually when the "terrorism" label is tossed around as justification for policy in predominantly anglo countries, somehow it usually ends up being most efficiently applied to people from elsewhere.....

THIS

[WillburForce]

I think you're all a bit "Big Brother is watching you" about it all.

Do you all think that there are aliens in area 52 (is that the place?). Is Jason Bourne based in truth? Is the US goverment behind 9/11?

I don't really havce a view on it (ID cards) - but would I be bothered if I had a card, that had my details on it, that the government also had? Not really. Unless it was proven they were doing it in some scheming fucked up way.

And with CCTV and the DNA database (things that people in Britain, espicially the Daily Mail, seem to get annoyed about) - has this not solved alot of crimes? Do you not feel safer for having it? I know some bits of London were I'm very happy to see it.

I'm not leveling, niether trying to state fact - I'm kinda open about it at the moment - but my knee-jerk reaction isn't "OMFG!!!! it's just like George Orwell said it would be".

[DrivingDog]

Way too much Orwell-fueled paranoia imo. ID cards, speed cameras, CCTV would be evil if their purpose was to brainwash us into being some kind of automaton citizens as in 1984, or if they were set up in our homes or could somehow read our thoughts.

I can't say much about ID cards one way or the other. Seems like kind of a waste of time imo. I certainly don't see an ID card as a threat to my rights any more than a passport is.

About speed cameras. They're not just a way to raise money. If you don't speed you won't get caught and there's no fines. It's that simple. And no, they don't hide them behind hedges in the UK, they put them on big poles that everyone can see, and they're often warnings as you approach them. Also, they're put in accident 'hot-spots' and they do work to reduce accidents.

Lol at speed not being a determining factor in car crashes. I'm not even going to bother refuting that except to say you need to go back to grade 3 physics and learn about the relationship between velocity and force and grade 4 biology to learn about the timing of reflexes.

CCTV has helped identify criminals. You're in a public place, you have no expectation of privacy, so how exactly are you being violated? And CCTV DOES reduce crime. Yeah Big Brother is watching you punks, so don't fucking rob me while I walk down the street.

And lol at an American being upset about ID cards in the UK. Didn't your gov't pass a law after 911 saying they could open your mail and go into your house without a warrant? I'd be much more bothered about my own gov't trampling my rights than some other country bringing in ID cards.

[spoonitnow]

And lol at an American being upset about ID cards in the UK. Didn't your gov't pass a law after 911 saying they could open your mail and go into your house without a warrant? I'd be much more bothered about my own gov't trampling my rights than some other country bringing in ID cards.

We are bothered because it's a similar type of thing.

[Jack Sawyer]

Only about 4 pounds

get it while its hot

http://www.amazon.co.uk/KY-Jelly-82g...7797042&sr=8-1

[DrivingDog]

And lol at an American being upset about ID cards in the UK. Didn't your gov't pass a law after 911 saying they could open your mail and go into your house without a warrant? I'd be much more bothered about my own gov't trampling my rights than some other country bringing in ID cards.

We are bothered because it's a similar type of thing.

Apart from both involving the government interfering in people's lives I don't see the similarities. One is making people get an ID card, not much different from making them get a passport or a visa. The other is invading their homes and/or right to privacy.

It seems like you and others are just having a knee-jerk reaction to something that is actually pretty minor. No one's yet given any clear and objective reasons why ID cards are such a horrible thing.

[spoonitnow]

[Thunder]

I think you're all a bit "Big Brother is watching you" about it all.

Of course - because that was the reason behind 1984. It's how that entire totalitarian state was established. This is how all fascist states exist and thrive. No one in their right mind would vote for such a regime. But it comes in bit by bit. By the indifferent, the uneducated and the sheep. And if you doubt this then you really need to open your eyes.

It's happening now and has done so throughout time.

Your comment about aliens is as laughable as it is facetious. And as for being based in truth, that is what 1984 was. Orwell was sending us a warning - based upon the mankind's repeated actions and motivations throughout the ages. Most notably for Orwell, WWII, Nazi-ism, fascism and the Third Reich. 1984 is rich in so many ways beyond simply Big Brother and its parallels with human nature/human history is intricate and deep.

I don't really have a view on it (ID cards) - but would I be bothered if I had a card, that had my details on it, that the government also had? Not really. Unless it was proven they were doing it in some scheming fucked up way.

Then you are naive, ill educated, blind, moronic (delete as applicable).

You don't object to the power someone has over you by bagging and tagging you? You don't see where it can lead to? the abuse? Step by step it will become true. Why else do you think ID cards are being staggered in their introduction? because once they're here in a reduced form, it is easy to expand them further. Just check your facts (of you have any) on Nazi Germany. Even when under the Fuhrer, they still didn't forsee their own children and family ratting on them - even when innocent! They didn't forsee that it was only a hop, skip and a jump from "innocent until proven guilty" to "guilty until proven innocent"

Hell, this has ALREADY happened when the police were able to change the "rights" from "you do not have to say anything" to "but if you don't say anything it will be held against you". if you speak, you incriminate yourself. if you stay quiet, you incriminate yourself. That is not justice, freedom or fairness and sure as hell ain't built on the Magna Carta that shaped Britain and the US - especially the Bill of Rights.

In addition, the police can take your DNA when arrested for even the slightest incident and never have to destroy it - even if you are innocent!

Add to this the fact that baby DNA is being collected at birth across large parts of the country and this will be rolled out nationwide.

Then the ID cards are coming.

And now there are plans to use a new type of camera that can monitor drivers fully where they can pull up previous footage of you and if you found to have been eating, driving one handed, laughing, fiddling with your radio, then you can be deemed to be negligent in any future incidents. Even if you were NOT doing any of these things at the time and even if they cannot prove anything! You are now going to be found guilty through association and hearsay instead of through proof!

Just look at all of the above! And you think we may be overdoing the Orwellian angle?

All this has crept in bit by bit and before long the once unthinkable camera in your own home will be a reality for us just as it was in Russia 40 years ago. And the same trite excuses that you are bandying about will be bleated by the weak minded as to why it will be a good thing!

And you will only feel bad if they are using such info for nefarious needs but by the time it dawns it will be TOO LATE! Just as by the time the German nation realised Hitler was as much a threat to them as to Europe, it was too late. As Orwell wrote in another novel, Animal Farm, absolute power corrupts absolutely and was yet again, another warning based upon centuries of repeated behaviour - and most recently WWII. And if it can happen in all these other nations, then it can happen here. And it is.

And Animal Farm too, touched upon realisation coming too late.

Do you get it now? Orwell wasn't writing sci fi but documenting human fact. Seeing it rise again and again through the foibles of Mankind - the last of which nearly destroyed the world.

No, CCTV has not solved crimes and we still lag behind most of the EU in terms of crime prevention - despite more cameras per head than anywhere in the world. You are just spouting nonsense based on what they want you to think. Do some research, please!

but my knee-jerk reaction isn't "OMFG!!!! it's just like George Orwell said it would be".

I mean this with all sincerity: to think this, to misunderstand Orwell, and to not be aware of the parallels with today is both dim witted and very, very frightening.

[Thunder]

Way too much Orwell-fueled paranoia imo. ID cards, speed cameras, CCTV would be evil if their purpose was to brainwash us into being some kind of automaton citizens as in 1984, or if they were set up in our homes or could somehow read our thoughts.

Too much? It's letting things like this go that leads to 1984. And besides, you miss the point, 1984 was not about brainwashing citizens into automons. Similarly, you talk about being in our homes - and that is the point. It all starts somewhere. That is what Orwell was warning against.

I certainly don't see an ID card as a threat to my rights any more than a passport is.

Your passport does not prevent you from living a full life within your country. Nor does it contain anywhere near as much personal info as ID cards will. Everything comes in stages. Bit by bit. Wait until they become compulsory and see what you think then.

You don't see ID cards as a threat despite the government making it very clear that though they won't be compulsory "at first" you will still need one if you want to open a bank account, obtain a passport, MOT a car, get insurance, get married, get a job etc. And all this is right from the off. Wait until they refine and tweak - adding new conditions.

About speed cameras. They're not just a way to raise money. If you don't speed you won't get caught and there's no fines. It's that simple. And no, they don't hide them behind hedges in the UK, they put them on big poles that everyone can see, and they're often warnings as you approach them. Also, they're put in accident 'hot-spots' and they do work to reduce accidents.

You really need to check your facts. They are to raise revenue only and stat after stats, report after report have proven them to be ineffective in combating accidents. Even the latest government run think tank, in October, concluded the same.

Also, hand held radars ARE hidden out of sight and in April 2007 the police won the right to ONCE AGAIN hide speed cameras and paint them to blend in with their backgrounds - like they used to.

Lol at speed not being a determining factor in car crashes.

If you're gonna LOL then make sure you understand what you are replying to. We all know a faster car exerts more force than a slower one - but that is irrelevant to what was ACTUALLY being said: speed is not a determining factor in car related accidents.

CCTV has helped identify criminals. You're in a public place, you have no expectation of privacy, so how exactly are you being violated?

So stupid as to be laughable. CCTV hasn't helped reduce crime - unless you count targeting minor infringes by law abiding citizens who won't put up a fight. Which, again, is discussed by Orwell and is prevalent in all modern societies. In fact, an increase in CCTV has correlated with an increase in knife crime. Unsolved, too. And UK stats still trail way behind most EU countries in relation to crime prevention.

Your comment about not expecting privacy is as scary as it is hilarious. If you truly have no concept of the idiocy of your words - nor where such sentiment leads - then God help you.

You truly believe that you cannot have, or expect privacy, in public? Would you accept someone walking with you, to listen in and spy?

It's only one step and a skip away from being stopped on the street by a Gestapo, from having that camera in your home and all you will do is bleat how you didn't have privacy anyway and so what is the big deal?

And the next thing you know, you're running scared of your own children, fearing that they will report you to the authorities - whether you have done something bad or not.

[Thunder]

Hiding Speed Cameras
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article732072.ece

Speed Camera Fail
http://www.speedcameras.org/speed_camera_facts.php

CCTV Fail
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/ma...d=networkfront

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...es-646686.html

Just a sample - of many.

Pro speed cameras are like the religious. They insist what they say is true - and make grand statements - without any proof whatsoever and despite every other piece of evidence pointing to the contrary.

Apart from both involving the government interfering in people's lives I don't see the similarities. One is making people get an ID card, not much different from making them get a passport or a visa. The other is invading their homes and/or right to privacy.

It's vastly different and nothing like getting a passport. Your body is violated as are your rights. If you want any semblance of a life, you have to give up this information. And as if this isn't bad enough, it's the reasons behind it. The power it can wield. And the fallacy of human nature to drop us all in the shit. Again.

It seems like you and others are just having a knee-jerk reaction to something that is actually pretty minor. No one's yet given any clear and objective reasons why ID cards are such a horrible thing.

Orwell was right. People never learn.

[sarbox68]

Can I just do a big +1 to Thunder's whole f-kin string of posts?

Paranoia is by definition rooted in experience, and the human one is far too replete with a tendency towards the abuse of power and control, many times to the extent of violence and subjugation. No country or culture is immune, as we all have many of the same skeletons in our respective closets... and the worst thing we could do is to forget the reasons why we or those around or before us fear certain behavior.

[Warpe]

Thunder, while we appreciate that your opinions are strongly held, your condescending/insulting comments do nothing to further discussion.

[Thunder]

and the worst thing we could do is to forget the reasons why we or those around or before us fear certain behavior.

Amen.

[Jack Sawyer]

Can I just do a big +1 to Thunder's whole f-kin string of posts?

+2 here too

[DrivingDog]

Thunder, while we appreciate that your opinions are strongly held, your condescending/insulting comments do nothing to further discussion.

Who ever heard of a raving paranoid who was calm and level-headed?

Here's what I have to say about his arguments:


1) Speed cameras. So what if speed cameras are just a cash cow. Speeding does cause some accidents (despite what you said), it's the law not to speed, you break the law you pay a fine. How is that infringing on your basic human rights? Are you saying you have a right to break the law?

Hidden speed cameras give you nightmares? Hmm, how about undercover police operations to catch bank robbers? Should they be telling the robbers, "I'm not actually in your gang. I'm a cop. Im here watching you plan your heist so we can bust you. Just thought it was fair to let you know."

2) CCTV. It's stupid to say CCTV has helped identify criminals? I supposed then it's also stupid to say that DNA evidence has helped convict murderers and rapists. Also, CCTV is just one element in preventing crime. The fact that crime goes up in the same region as more CCTV are introduced does not mean that CCTV doesn't do any good. Correlation does not imply causation. If it did, you could conclude that CCTV is causing the increase in crime. The real question is whether more or fewer crimes are being committed in locations where CCTV are visible. Show me some research on that.

And you seem to imply that CCTV is being specifically used to target generally law-abiding citizens (people committing little crimes who won't put up a fight - you mean jaywalkers?). Presumably because the government is evil and wants to make life hard for as many people as it can. Is that really what you think CCTV is about? Just the government out to screw us?

And no, you don't have an expectation of privacy in a public space. If someone overhears you threatening to kill someone else they can testify in court to that effect. And if you're in public people can watch you if they want to. Are you saying if someone watches you cross a street they are infringing on your rights? Also, unless I'm mistaken, CCTV doesn't use microphones, so they're not actually listening to your paranoid conversations about how the government is out to get you. At least not YET....

Sorry, but a camera filming a street is miles away from having the Gestapo stop you on that street or the camera being in your home or your children turning you in for thought crimes. Just because you assume it's right around the corner doesn't make it true...

3) ID cards. Same argument: ID cards can lead to worse things. Yeah, everything COULD lead to something worse. The gov't could analyse the picture on your driving license and decide if you're fit enough to reproduce. So driving licenses are bad? They could implant a tracking chip under your skin at the same time as they give you a measles shot. So inoculations are fascist?

Just because something could happen doesn't mean it will happen. Oh no, you mean I'll need an ID card to open a bank account? As opposed to how it is now where I can just walk into any bank and open an account under any name without having to show proof of identity? You mean the gov't will know where I live and how much money I make and what crimes i've been convicted of and how many kids I have and where they go to school? Yeah that's frightening and so unlike the way things are now...

I still say LOL to you and your Orwellian concept of the world.

[DrivingDog]

The irony Thunder is that in all you're arguments you're doing to the government the same kind of thing you're so afraid that they're going to do to you someday - judging and convicting them on the basis of what they might do rather than what they've actually done.

[spoonitnow]

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

[DrivingDog]

I guess that means the people who voted for him. Twice.

[Galapogos]

Speed Camera Fail
[url]http://www.speedcameras.org/speed_camera_facts.php[/url

I clicked on this expecting a funny picture

[sarbox68]

I guess that means the people who voted for him. Twice.

Don't forget that less than half the country voted for him... twice...

and a chunk of those that did, did so primarily due to party affiliation (maybe labor and conservative frequently switch their voting tendencies around... but I don't think so...)

So that leaves only a relative minority that actually voted for him 'cause they thought he was the best person to lead.

Of course, it's good to know now that his facial expressions were from concentrating. I always thought he just needed to poop....

[WillburForce]

Thunder - I have no problem with you (well a bit maybe, but meh) - but as Warped pointed out, you come across as very condesending. People have different veiws.

But I'm seriosuly OMFFFFFG at what some of you guys believe.

So tell me, who's behind all this? Gordon Brown? Is Cameron in on it as well? Does MI5 organise it? Or something even more sinister...?

Also your comments on Nazi Germany are at best lol laughable and I could even say pretty offensive. I think my other halfs family (who are Jewish) would rather live in the Britain we live in today than Nazi Germany. Just a hunch.

I just hope while I'm typing the thought police aren't on to me!!!

[pgil]

straight from the end of the article, and one of the best arguments against such a system.

Opponents' argument that the government cannot be trusted with sensitive personal information was buttressed by several recent instances when the government misplaced computers disks — or actual laptops — containing data on British citizens.

Last November, two non-encrypted computer disks containing the addresses and bank account numbers of 25 million Britons was placed in the government's internal mail system but never delivered, leaving officials unsure about its whereabouts.

also in the article, in some countries you can't even make a cash purchase at a corner store without producing your ID card. think about the implications of this. Your every movement can now be monitored, as well as every single purchase you make.

to argue that a government doesn't want to know everything its citizens do is just plain silly. Look to the US for an example. They wiretapped phones for no reason, listened to and recorded phone calls of ordinary citizens without cause. All under the guise of preventing terrorism.

just remember that information is power. companies want to know more about you so that they know how much you can spend, what you will spend it on, and why. Governments want to know who you vote for, what will sway your vote, and why.

I would just like to ask how these ID cards are going to help prevent terrorism, which is there stated purpose?

If we are being completely pragmatic, it is going to cost 5.1 Billion pounds (and lets face it, these numbers are almost always smaller than the final number), with the intention of helping to prevent terrorism. How will this accomplish this task?

[sarbox68]

... 'cause they'll check the "Terrorist" box on the application form and get a nice little sticker for the back of their ID card......

[mixchange]

I would agree about ppl being too paranoid about this kind of stuff 10 yrs ago, before I saw Bush/Iraq War/Patriot Act happen here in the us. Enough to convince me at some point someone in the gov will have terrible motives/ideas, often mixed with incompetency.

Personally I'd prefer to give the gov the bare minimum power needed to function.

[Ash256]

I would agree about ppl being too paranoid about this kind of stuff 10 yrs ago, before I saw Bush/Iraq War/Patriot Act happen here in the us.

[vqc]

I had a long post and everything, but nevermind that. I throw my hat in with the people who don't like the idea of a nat'l ID.

I don't believe in conspiracy theorists, or the idea that the man is out to get me. The gov't is as a whole is incompetent and an ID card will have more of a negative effect than a positive one.

[triumphant cracker]

I had a similar conversation with an equally misguided person about speed cameras. Like all good sheep, he regurgitated the emotion heavy imagery that had been fed to him.

"Why do you complain about speed cameras? Do you have something to hide? Maybe it's me but I don't want to send a child bouncing across a car bonnet..."

"Child" and "bouncing" are emotionally weighted - designed to invoke a reaction. When there is little genuine reason for doing something, this type of rhetoric is brought out. Bush and Iraq etc.

That speed is constantly revealed to be not the killer that it is made out to be is ignored. Equally ominous is the methodology behind it. Hiding speed cameras behind trees is NOT to act as a deterrent - it's to prey. Snapping someone has NOT saved a child's life at that moment in time. A far more effective - and PROVEN - method is to be clearly visible. Hiding behind a hedge waiting to pounce - is prejudging someone as a criminal who needs to be snared.

"If you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear" but being treated as a virtual prisoner in your own land, permanently watched, checked, bagged and tagged is not the way of the Free and, whatever those who want to introduce such measures may say (with their emotive tones, remember) are used only to inhibit and oppress.

i agree...

when i went thru a yellow light, it turned red as i was under it..the camera snapped my pix..however..because i saw it..i never went thru it again when it was yellow....

[Miffed22001]

i dont know how people can put speed cameras and ID cards together: everyday you go out on the road people should be banned left right and centre because they arent fit to be in charge of themselves never mind a car: drive down the M1 at 8.30am.
Speed cameras COULD be abused, and the govt setting revenue targets on them is the dumbest thing ever but i agree need to be there to stop all the clowns; however they should be being used as a deterrant not anything else.

Id cards are just a blatent attempt at controlling the individual, having an excuse to do so, and eventually giving the police/govt too many powers/access to the individuals information which is part of the govt - citizen relationship in democratic type govts.
I live in area where a lot of migrants work and its shocking that every 3rd person is a pole, eastern european or asian but ID cards arent the way to solve that, sorting out immigration here is.
Why are we letting so many of these people into our contries?

[DrivingDog]

Why are we letting so many of these people into our contries?

THESE people? If I didn't know better I'd say you were prejudiced.

And the answer is: they let them in for the same reason the US lets Mexicans in - they need someone to do the shit jobs for low pay no-one else will do.

[MuddyWicket]

The real fact is that the people they are trying to stop wth the cards are exactly the people who can easily circumnavigate them.

Gun laws in the uk mean only those who shouldnt have guns still have them. The responsible majority just had their freedom curtailed, as they will again.

The people who are actually a real threat, such as those who just struck in India, either do not need a card or will get one anyway. This will not stop or even hinder the proffessional criminal/terrrorist.

Allin all its like buying a dvd and not being able to fast forward through the piracy warning, which you never find on a pirated dvd. ironic.

If the uk goverment could actually get a computer system to store this information on, that actually worked (doubtful) they sure as hell would not be able to keep the information secure. Mearly having them keep all this information probably means we are less safe. Net gain is -ve.

[Miffed22001]

Why are we letting so many of these people into our contries?

THESE people? If I didn't know better I'd say you were prejudiced.

And the answer is: they let them in for the same reason the US lets Mexicans in - they need someone to do the shit jobs for low pay no-one else will do.

why are our own 'muppets' not doing them ,why do we need foreigners to pack boxes etc etc

It seems a very weak link, but we have a perceived benfits problem with people claiming inproperly and 1000s of imigrant workers who take all our money back to their own economies after a few years: that cant be good in my eyes

[Miffed22001]

The real fact is that the people they are trying to stop wth the cards are exactly the people who can easily circumnavigate them.

Gun laws in the uk mean only those who shouldnt have guns still have them. The responsible majority just had their freedom curtailed, as they will again.

The people who are actually a real threat, such as those who just struck in India, either do not need a card or will get one anyway. This will not stop or even hinder the proffessional criminal/terrrorist.

Allin all its like buying a dvd and not being able to fast forward through the piracy warning, which you never find on a pirated dvd. ironic.

If the uk goverment could actually get a computer system to store this information on, that actually worked (doubtful) they sure as hell would not be able to keep the information secure. Mearly having them keep all this information probably means we are less safe. Net gain is -ve.

this is pretty close imo

[DrivingDog]

yah a lot of poles and ukranians working at top level finance jobs in London laundering money to take back to the home country. All those guys serving burgers at McD's an Bk are just a front.

When's the last time you bought gas (petrol) and didn't hand your money to a foreigner? Or is that part of your argument? They'er starting small...

[bigred]

Freedom is slavery

[will641]

Are we sure this isn't just another attempt to FINALLY get rid of all the Pakis?

Strike please mods

yeah seriously. can we just ban the first amendment all together?

[Ash256]

yah a lot of poles and ukranians working at top level finance jobs in London laundering money to take back to the home country. All those guys serving burgers at McD's an Bk are just a front.

When's the last time you bought gas (petrol) and didn't hand your money to a foreigner? Or is that part of your argument? They'er starting small...

You think the Spanish like the most annoying people in the Midlands emigrating there to set up their own little mini-england shithole, chippies and people throwing up on the streets included?

And LOL at your proposition that the poles working the shitty min-wage jobs are a front for some Polish conspiracy

[DrivingDog]

yah a lot of poles and ukranians working at top level finance jobs in London laundering money to take back to the home country. All those guys serving burgers at McD's an Bk are just a front.

When's the last time you bought gas (petrol) and didn't hand your money to a foreigner? Or is that part of your argument? They'er starting small...

And LOL at your proposition that the poles working the shitty min-wage jobs are a front for some Polish conspiracy

So you got the joke...?

[Warpe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/bu...vacy.html?8dpc

[Ash256]

yah a lot of poles and ukranians working at top level finance jobs in London laundering money to take back to the home country. All those guys serving burgers at McD's an Bk are just a front.

When's the last time you bought gas (petrol) and didn't hand your money to a foreigner? Or is that part of your argument? They'er starting small...

And LOL at your proposition that the poles working the shitty min-wage jobs are a front for some Polish conspiracy

So you got the joke...?

woops


I hear so much crazy racist shit at work from people who believe that 9/11 was perpetrated by brown people in general that I don't know who's taking the piss these days

[Ltrain]

On a micro scale, the greatest injustices humans have and do inflict on other humans occur when the person doing the damage thinks his actions are without consequence (i.e., BECAUSE HE CAN). Why did the "guards" abuse the "prisoners" in the Stanford prisoner experiment? Because the could. Why did the US Army track and record phone sex conversations between soldiers and their wives? Because they could.

On a macro scale, the greatest systematic injustices in history are committed by government bodies that had no oversight. Before the Gypsies and Jews, Hitler executed the mentally ill, elderly and orphans as a means of making his society more "efficient" and less costly for the war effort. Because the country was in a nationalistic furvor and at war, there was no opposition. Why did the government do it? Because it could. If the government is allowed absolute freedom to track or control our movements without our knowledge or oversight, why would they not abuse that freedom?

This is why the Orwellian references are justified.

[Jack Sawyer]

absolute power corrupts absolutely

information is power in today's world, after all

[Thunder]

Can't be bothered to reply to Driving Dog, especially as he continues to miss the bulk of the points being made, distort what is being said, and ignores those that correct him.

Wilbur, that you find my points condescending is one thing but to say that my comments re Nazi Germany are laughable/offensive is another and indicates that you don't understand what is being said.

I recommend that you learn more. That is not an insult but a hypothesis based on the knowledge (or lack of) that you are displaying. I bet that you haven't read Orwell, or be aware of how it parallels the Nazi regime, let alone be in a position to dismiss it. Again, this is a comment on your words, not a personal attack.

Orwell was not a sci fi fantasist. He produced several allegorical works on the corruptive instincts of Man which had surfaced repeatedly before Orwell and have continued since. Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Mussolini and Mugabe are just a few examples from recent history. Each became a dictator yet started out more socialistic. They duped the masses by fighting for them before later oppressing them.

[Thunder]

Your comments about police watching what you type and MI5 are facile & childish. We’re not saying that anyone IS up to some dastardly totalitarian plan right now. Nor was Orwell. The message is not to let it get to the point where it can happen because by then it will be too late just as it too late for each country to stop their dictators.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. From small time crooks to world leaders. And it has also been true through the ages - so “LOL” all you. It serves only to highlight your ignorance. The sheer weight of evidence overwhelms your opinion.

No one steps up and says ”I want to control you all like pawns” because they would never get in power. They do it bit by bit. Which is why people like you think it’s ok and that others are paranoid. Bit by bit. Which is why you accept CCTV, DNA gathering and ID cards. You fail to see that this has been the pattern throughout human history and that it always leads to abuse. Often with cataclysmic results.

[Thunder]

You spout the “I have nothing to hide so I don’t mind” mantra yet cannot see how this is exploitabe further and also sets the precedent that those who do disagree MUST have something to hide. And THAT is how you end up with innocent people being shopped. It happened in Nazi Germany, Russia, Iraq and still happens in North Korea, China and Zimbabwe. You think that is paranoia?

Bit by bit is how everything creeps in. As a simple example: your typical R’n’B video would be x rated just 25 years ago and would be vetoed but over time, bit by bit, pushing the boundaries slightly each time, videos have gotten raunchier. It’s the same principle.

When a mother and father were being carried off by the secret police, who were called by their own children, they didn’t think it would ever come to this. They may even have “LOL” at the idea, just as you are doing now.

[Thunder]

If you want, ignore all the evidence throughout history and just focus on recent events. In the past 10 years or so:

1) The right of silence. "you do not have to say anything” has been amended to “but it may harm your defence if you do not mention…” So you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
2) Explosion of CCTV to the point where you’re filmed 300 times a day, for NO valid reason.
3) DNA being taken from innocent people and never being destroyed.
4) ID cards for all.
5) Plans to criminalize drivers on hearsay. 5 yr old footage will be enough to convict you of being at fault in a later incident.
6) Most of all, in the past 2 years, since special laws were introduced to fight terrorism, numerous local councils have abused them in order to spy and criminalize innocent people. You and Driving Dog find such a concept laughable but once again, as through history, it is happening once again.


Just stop and think off all of the above. They were all unthinkable and “LOL” just ten year prior. Ten years! So just what “LOL” is possible within the next ten, twenty or thirty?

[Thunder]

Look at 6) for succinct proof of what you and Driving Dog love to mock. Councils are abusing powers that can only be called upon under extreme circumstances so that they can spy, persecute, vilify and suspect its own people of trivial matters.

Numerous councils – not one - doing what has been done multiple times in Man’s past. It’s small scale now but the genesis is the same. And the more people accept, like the ever raunchier music videos, the more powers will be granted. It expands exponentially.

So yes, it is proof that the state/police DO pick on the law abiders because they are the easiest to target. It is proof that power leads to abuse and persecution. People have been fined and given criminal records for having their bin lids ajar by 3 inches, or by placing their bin an inch too close to the kerb!! Are they paranoid? Every War hero would turn in his grave!

And all this from terrorist only laws introduced recently. Can you see what is happening? What has always happened? And where it can lead?

Can you connect the dots? Can you see the risk and that it’s better to prevent than cure? Especially with the weight of Mankind’s track record, across every continent and century?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely and it is only a matter of time before “four legs good, two legs bad” becomes “four legs good, two legs better”.

[Thunder]

And that's it. Nothing more can be said.

Thanks for the +1s.

[WillburForce]

I've read Orwell, very clever satirist, studied a couple of his books like most Brits at GCSE. Not one of my favourite writers.
I got bored reading your posts though. Stopped about halfway through.

I don't want to go on and fuel more massive posts and flaming etc, and I respect other peoples views, but you have some very strange views.

when it happens though, give me a shout, I'll back you up! We can storm Downing St together shouting "Revolution"

[Thunder]

Wow, the mighty GCSE!

Being bored, strange views, storming Downing Street and stopping reading when facts are on display yet still replying - that's why there really is nothing more to be said.

[Ash256]

We’re not saying that anyone IS up to some dastardly totalitarian plan right now.

Apart from Jacqui Smith, she's one mad bitch.




+1 for all the other stuff you've said though!

[WillburForce]

Wow, the mighty GCSE!

Being bored, strange views, storming Downing Street and stopping reading when facts are on display yet still replying - that's why there really is nothing more to be said.

Thunder you are priceless.

GCSE - did you get the irony?

Facts on display? Who's says they are facts?

But please, please for the love of all things holy, quit with your massive posts.