What do you do against a reg's first 4bet?

[Sup3rM4N]

Lets say this is 200NL. Opponent is a thinking reg and overall a solid player. No datamine so your stuck with only w/e stats you have on him from this session. You have 3betted him a few times both IP and OOP and he has folded all of them (say 4-5 times within). You have A3 sooted and 3bet ($28) his LP raise and he 4bets you to say $70. What do you do?

The first time I 4bet a habitual 3bettor, I am almost always bluffing. Now isnt there a good chance he might be doing it as well? This is ofcourse against certain oppenents. If its a villain whos been flatting 3bets too much n suddenly 4bets or a really bad player or a nit, I would insta muck. But against the kinda oppenents I described, wouldn't a 5bet shove be more profitable?

Let's say half the time he is bluffing, and half the time he has it.

Put into pokerstove.....:
equity win tie
Hand 0: 29.929% 28.91% 01.02% { As3s }
Hand 1: 70.071% 69.05% 01.02% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

The half he is bluffing, u pick up 35X BB. And the other half you pick up 30X BB. You lose 70/2 = 35X BB so shoving here gains u a profit of 30X BB right? Curious what you guys do when someone like that 4bets u for the first time.

Any comments or suggestion is appreciated.

[Toadstool]

At 200nl a reg generally doesn't really think that deep, and is usually along the lines of "It's my first 4 bet so he should give me lots of respect, then the next time I'll do it with a real hand and he'll think I'm FoS."

So I'd say that the first 4 bet you encounter from a typical decent 200nl reg is heavily weighted towards bluffs, which makes a 5 bet shove +EV.

I think the same also applies to when you're HU, and also to when you get threebet.

[Luke999]

At 200nl a reg generally doesn't really think that deep, and is usually along the lines of "It's my first 4 bet so he should give me lots of respect, then the next time I'll do it with a real hand and he'll think I'm FoS."

So I'd say that the first 4 bet you encounter from a typical decent 200nl reg is heavily weighted towards bluffs, which makes a 5 bet shove +EV.

I think the same also applies to when you're HU, and also to when you get threebet.

Definatley agree with this, from experience their first 3bet and 4 bet are normally bluffs.
I mean have you ever sat down HU and the first hand has gone crazy, because people want to establish an image and 3bet/4bet insane on the first hand (well i seem to get that a lot).

I personally 3bet/4bet first very light and the second time I've normally got a hand.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Lets say this is 200NL. Opponent is a thinking reg and overall a solid player. No datamine so your stuck with only w/e stats you have on him from this session. You have 3betted him a few times both IP and OOP and he has folded all of them (say 4-5 times within). You have A3 sooted and 3bet ($28) his LP raise and he 4bets you to say $70. What do you do?

The first time I 4bet a habitual 3bettor, I am almost always bluffing. Now isnt there a good chance he might be doing it as well? This is ofcourse against certain oppenents. If its a villain whos been flatting 3bets too much n suddenly 4bets or a really bad player or a nit, I would insta muck. But against the kinda oppenents I described, wouldn't a 5bet shove be more profitable?

Let's say half the time he is bluffing, and half the time he has it.

Put into pokerstove.....:
equity win tie
Hand 0: 29.929% 28.91% 01.02% { As3s }
Hand 1: 70.071% 69.05% 01.02% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

The half he is bluffing, u pick up 35X BB. And the other half you pick up 30X BB. You lose 70/2 = 35X BB so shoving here gains u a profit of 30X BB right? Curious what you guys do when someone like that 4bets u for the first time.

Any comments or suggestion is appreciated.

With no reads this is pretty good, especially with your ace blocker the only problem is if you have 3 bet him 4-5 times over a large sample hes probalby waiting for a big hand. If you have been consistently pounding on him its a good spot to 5-bet shove as a bluff. Its pretty much a matter of feel. Now if hes going to snap you off with AQ it might change the factors a little bit. I don't have pokerstove infront of me now but just look into it.

[Fnord]

This is a feel thing.

Also, if you think someone distrusts you, you should lower your bluffing frequency against them.

When I play suited connectors and suited aces, I'm playing the opponent and game flow, not just my cards.

[nutsinho]

well i wouldnt be shoving too wide at all vs a raise to 70 with 200 stacks. seems like he should/would never be folding. if he goes 28--> 57ish it might be a different tale, but id say its pretty much always a feel thing rather than something you can determine by carefully analyzing a sequence of events.

[Genitruc]

ya preflop spewing is oh so much more about gameflow than about cards (outside of the say 4-5% of the time ppl are really doing it for value... sometimes less)